40 S&W
- Thread starter Cooter Brown
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Cooter Brown
Inactive
Guys,
Great responses. I appreciate all your comments, even the funny ones.
I guess I'm not giving up on the PM40 yet. I failed to mention that my last trip to the range was my first with the newly installed wrap around 'Agrip' product. If your hands are dry, there is virtually no bite to the grip. I'm ordering a hogue rubber grip and mag extenders. Hopefully this will solve the slippage factor. The follow up shots are going to be up to me.
Great responses. I appreciate all your comments, even the funny ones.
I guess I'm not giving up on the PM40 yet. I failed to mention that my last trip to the range was my first with the newly installed wrap around 'Agrip' product. If your hands are dry, there is virtually no bite to the grip. I'm ordering a hogue rubber grip and mag extenders. Hopefully this will solve the slippage factor. The follow up shots are going to be up to me.
You need to understand the elements of recoil so you can realize that your initial statement, "the 40 cal has a higher recoil to actual power ratio than other mainstream ammo." is incorrect. Recoil is about conservation of momentum and Newton's 3rd Law, "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."
So what does that mean in for all of us non PhD's in Physics? Simply this; felt recoil is about momentum transfer, how it is applied, and how we perceive that transfer. Recoil is the result of the bullet's mass times it's muzzle velocity. In other words if you change the momentum of the bullet quickly (higher velocity), it will impart the recoil more quickly and you will feel this quicker transfer as more of a jolt. This is true for all calibers, including the 40s&w. It behaves exactly the same way any other caliber does.
Consider a high pressure round vs a lower pressure round of equal weight, e.g. 200grn 40s&w at 35,000psi vs 200grn 45acp at 21,000psi. The higher pressure round will produce more recoil (and that recoil will be felt more sharply) because the bullet achieves a higher velocity before leaving the barrel.
Modern high pressure rounds were developed specifically because the simplest way to increase their performance is by increasing the velocity. That's because energy increases at the square of velocity increases while it increases linearly with an increase in bullet mass. Therefore a 165grn bullet increases to 2 times heavier will double it's muzzle energy while that same 165grn bullet accelerated to double the velocity will see a quadrupling of it's muzzle energy.
The result is that the modern, high pressure calibers like the 9mm, 357mag, 40s&w, and 10mm which were designed to produce higher velocities also produce a sharper recoil than an equivalent bullet weight in a low pressure, lower velocity round like a 38spl or 45acp.
Another element is the weapon grip/shooter interface. If one is grasping a thin, rigid pistol grip, they will feel a heavier recoil for a given bullet weight and velocity than if shooting the exact same round in a thick gripped, flexible framed weapon.
Why? Because the rigid framed 1911 45acp transfers more of the momentum to the shooter while a Glock 45acp's flexing frame transfers less and absorbs the rest. In addition, the shooter will perceive the 1911's thinner backstrap area as generating a higher recoil than the Glock's larger backstrap area.
So, even though the Glock has a lower mass to absorb the recoil (it weighs less that the 1911), the 1911's rigid frame and thin grip transmit the recoil more completely into the shooter causing them to feel a stronger recoil.
A third element of felt recoil concerns the ergonomics of the pistol's grip, shooter's grip, and stance. If the pistol is rigidly gripped, the shooters arms are locked, and he is flat up against a wall, he will feel the full impact of the recoil as most of it will be absorbed into his body. Conversely, if the shooter has a good grip and proper arm position that allow the pistol to rise, the shooter's stance is such that they can move, then more of the recoil will pass through them and not be felt.
Finally, the actual recoil produced by the round is simply a function of it's mass and velocity. How we perceive it is complicated by how it is dissipated in the weapon, how much is transferred to us, and how much we absorb.
So what does that mean in for all of us non PhD's in Physics? Simply this; felt recoil is about momentum transfer, how it is applied, and how we perceive that transfer. Recoil is the result of the bullet's mass times it's muzzle velocity. In other words if you change the momentum of the bullet quickly (higher velocity), it will impart the recoil more quickly and you will feel this quicker transfer as more of a jolt. This is true for all calibers, including the 40s&w. It behaves exactly the same way any other caliber does.
Consider a high pressure round vs a lower pressure round of equal weight, e.g. 200grn 40s&w at 35,000psi vs 200grn 45acp at 21,000psi. The higher pressure round will produce more recoil (and that recoil will be felt more sharply) because the bullet achieves a higher velocity before leaving the barrel.
Modern high pressure rounds were developed specifically because the simplest way to increase their performance is by increasing the velocity. That's because energy increases at the square of velocity increases while it increases linearly with an increase in bullet mass. Therefore a 165grn bullet increases to 2 times heavier will double it's muzzle energy while that same 165grn bullet accelerated to double the velocity will see a quadrupling of it's muzzle energy.
The result is that the modern, high pressure calibers like the 9mm, 357mag, 40s&w, and 10mm which were designed to produce higher velocities also produce a sharper recoil than an equivalent bullet weight in a low pressure, lower velocity round like a 38spl or 45acp.
Another element is the weapon grip/shooter interface. If one is grasping a thin, rigid pistol grip, they will feel a heavier recoil for a given bullet weight and velocity than if shooting the exact same round in a thick gripped, flexible framed weapon.
Why? Because the rigid framed 1911 45acp transfers more of the momentum to the shooter while a Glock 45acp's flexing frame transfers less and absorbs the rest. In addition, the shooter will perceive the 1911's thinner backstrap area as generating a higher recoil than the Glock's larger backstrap area.
So, even though the Glock has a lower mass to absorb the recoil (it weighs less that the 1911), the 1911's rigid frame and thin grip transmit the recoil more completely into the shooter causing them to feel a stronger recoil.
A third element of felt recoil concerns the ergonomics of the pistol's grip, shooter's grip, and stance. If the pistol is rigidly gripped, the shooters arms are locked, and he is flat up against a wall, he will feel the full impact of the recoil as most of it will be absorbed into his body. Conversely, if the shooter has a good grip and proper arm position that allow the pistol to rise, the shooter's stance is such that they can move, then more of the recoil will pass through them and not be felt.
Finally, the actual recoil produced by the round is simply a function of it's mass and velocity. How we perceive it is complicated by how it is dissipated in the weapon, how much is transferred to us, and how much we absorb.
Steve,
I agree with the majority of what you explained, and I think you did a better job than I have at explaining the same thing.
But...
This statement begs the question, "Which is better; momentum, or energy?"
Given the same cartridge, loading the lightest and heaviest bullets at the same pressure will give some interesting figures.
If one goes by "energy", the lightest bullet will generally give the highest energy figure.
If one goes by "momentum", the heavier bullet will generally give the highest figure.
The lighter bullets give higher energy figures because of the formula used to figure "energy", but the heavier bullets loaded to equal pressures from the same cartridge generally give better penetration.
When one seeks to "increase performance", they must first decide what performance is desired from the result.
The .40 S&W was designed as a result of the FBI's desire to increase the effectiveness of their issued sidearms by increasing penetration. They had a bit of trouble down in Miami, Florida in 1986 trying to stop a couple of perps with 9mm's and .38 special +p's. That led them to the 10mm, but it kicked to hard for smaller/female officers, so they downloaded it a bit. Then S&W realized that they could load a shorter 10mm case to the same velocities, and fit the shorter case into a 9mm sized handgun, and walah! The .40 S&W was born.
But I suppose something had to change. With 30 rounds of .38 special, 42 rounds of 9mm, and 5 rounds of 12 gauge 00 buckshot expended, they still lost 2 officers, and several others were wounded. Most of those officers were shot after the perps were both hit by repeated shots from the FBI agents.
Here's some interesting reading:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm
I agree with the majority of what you explained, and I think you did a better job than I have at explaining the same thing.
But...
This statement begs the question, "Which is better; momentum, or energy?"
Given the same cartridge, loading the lightest and heaviest bullets at the same pressure will give some interesting figures.
If one goes by "energy", the lightest bullet will generally give the highest energy figure.
If one goes by "momentum", the heavier bullet will generally give the highest figure.
The lighter bullets give higher energy figures because of the formula used to figure "energy", but the heavier bullets loaded to equal pressures from the same cartridge generally give better penetration.
When one seeks to "increase performance", they must first decide what performance is desired from the result.
The .40 S&W was designed as a result of the FBI's desire to increase the effectiveness of their issued sidearms by increasing penetration. They had a bit of trouble down in Miami, Florida in 1986 trying to stop a couple of perps with 9mm's and .38 special +p's. That led them to the 10mm, but it kicked to hard for smaller/female officers, so they downloaded it a bit. Then S&W realized that they could load a shorter 10mm case to the same velocities, and fit the shorter case into a 9mm sized handgun, and walah! The .40 S&W was born.
But I suppose something had to change. With 30 rounds of .38 special, 42 rounds of 9mm, and 5 rounds of 12 gauge 00 buckshot expended, they still lost 2 officers, and several others were wounded. Most of those officers were shot after the perps were both hit by repeated shots from the FBI agents.
Here's some interesting reading:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm
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If I read this again I'm gonna scream!
"The .40sw is a cartridge I can live without in my collection. Especially, since in the last few years improvements in ammo designs allow the 9mm to rival/equal it's performance".
__________________
If the 9mm has gotten better due to improvements in bullet design then hasn't the .40 gotten even better yet by the same technology? The same can be said for any ammunition being made today. Maybe the .380 is as good as the 9 because of better bullets and powders?
"The .40sw is a cartridge I can live without in my collection. Especially, since in the last few years improvements in ammo designs allow the 9mm to rival/equal it's performance".
__________________
If the 9mm has gotten better due to improvements in bullet design then hasn't the .40 gotten even better yet by the same technology? The same can be said for any ammunition being made today. Maybe the .380 is as good as the 9 because of better bullets and powders?
BusGunner007
New member
Follow-up shots...?
On what?
Is this a self-defense firearm?
If so, how small of a group do you wish to place into the torso of the perp?
If it's for target shooting only, then I guess you'll need to keep looking for a firearm/cartridge combo that allows 'faster' follow-up shots.
I just don't get all this caliber war stuff sometimes.
Like the 'thumbs-forward' grip you're going to use in a self-defense scenario while you do a simultaneous adrenaline/mag dump into the attacker...right.
Some things just belong on the IPSC range and should stay there.
If you end up in court looking like a sport shooter, trouble may ensue.
Of course, if you go through life like this with a man running behind you holding a little thingie over your shoulder, your chances of being attacked are probably slim-to-none...
OK, my rant is over. And I had fun posting.
I like the .40.
On what?
Is this a self-defense firearm?
If so, how small of a group do you wish to place into the torso of the perp?
If it's for target shooting only, then I guess you'll need to keep looking for a firearm/cartridge combo that allows 'faster' follow-up shots.
I just don't get all this caliber war stuff sometimes.
Like the 'thumbs-forward' grip you're going to use in a self-defense scenario while you do a simultaneous adrenaline/mag dump into the attacker...right.
Some things just belong on the IPSC range and should stay there.
If you end up in court looking like a sport shooter, trouble may ensue.
Of course, if you go through life like this with a man running behind you holding a little thingie over your shoulder, your chances of being attacked are probably slim-to-none...
OK, my rant is over. And I had fun posting.
I like the .40.
I've considered the 9 vs 40 thing a lot lately. I've shot mainly 40, and the other day, I rented a G19 in 9mm for comparison. I like the 9, but its recoil isn't so much lighter than the 40 to make a lot of difference for me. It's not like you don't notice the recoil (like w/ a .22.) I'll shoot and own both going forward, but I like the 40 more.
I can honestly say that I've never seriously considered buying a 9mm. There are just too many better options out there that I much prefer.
For me, the .40 S&W is right up there at the top in a reliable semi-auto pistol. I guess I've shot enough .40 S&W cartridges through various pistols to make up my own mind, so I don't put too much faith into the common .40 bashings.
Other's opinions will vary, and they're welcome to their own choice, but the .40 S&W hasn't given me any reason to ditch it for a smaller cartridge.
If a person doesn't handload, the 9mm can be cheaper to shoot with practice ammo. When it comes to good quality self-defense ammo though, the difference is almost non-existent.
LanceOregon
Moderator
Cooter:
The Kahr P series pistols in .40 S&W are easily the hardest recoiling of any .40 S&W pistols that I have owned, and that includes seven pistols from six different manufacturers. Very painful to shoot unless you place something over the very aggressive checkering they have on their polymer frames. And they really have quite a whiplash, of the barrel rising most dramatically in recoil. This makes follow up shots extremely difficult to make.
I gave up on my Kahr P40, and moved on.
My current preferred compact carry gun is now a Walther PPS. The PPS is very similar in size, and is actually slightly thinner than the Kahr handguns. It is available in either 9mm or .40 S&W, and has a longer grip that really aids in getting a better grip on the gun. And it does not have that awful checkering on the grip that the Kahr has.
I ended up getting one in .40 S&W, and have found it to be quite superior to the Kahr in terms of control-ability and comfort. I can shoot it faster and more accurately, and without the pain I had with the Kahr.
Now the gun is still a relatively light pistol, with a thin grip. So the .40 S&W is going to feel snappy in it. However, I've made two modifications to my PPS, to help reduce the felt recoil even further.
First, for just $10, I ordered a Limbsaver Pro Handgun grip model 12013 from www.limbsaver.com for $10 This is a fantastic addition to almost any handgun, especially to one that recoils hard. The Limbsaver material really assists greatly in getting both a secure, yet comfortable grip on the gun. And it really does soften the sting of the recoil.
Here is what my Walther PPS looks like with it on:
For just $10, it is well worth anyone trying with their handgun. I certainly love the way that it improves the Walther PPS grip.
Secondly, I purchased a more heavy-duty recoil guide/spring assembly from a company called DPM Systems, and replaced the factory unit with it. While the improvement is not that great, every little bit helps, in my opinion. Here is a photo of the DPMS unit installed on my PPS:
They are not cheap at $75, but again, I wanted to do all that I could to make the gun soft shooting. And it really is quite a comfortable and easy to shoot gun now.
DPM Systems Inc.
In any event, I highly recommend that you consider the Walther PPS and take a close look at it. They have the same type of trigger system as a Glock, and even disassemble the exact same way. So since you are already familiar with Glocks, it should feel most familiar to you.
Here is a photo of my Walther PPS .40 S&W above my full size Beretta PX4 .40 S&W, so you can get a comparison of how much smaller it is, compared to a full size gun:
Here is a photo comparing the PPS to a S&W J frame revolver with a 2" barrel. The PPS has the same length and height, and is thinner:
Finally, here is a Walther PPS on the right, compared to a Baby Glock 26, on the left. You can see how dramatically thinner it is, in comparison.
In my opinion your issue is more with the gun you picked vs the caliber.
We all have different sized hands, long or short fingers, some arthritis, etc ...and all that means picking a gun, especially a smaller gun, becomes a big deal. Since that Kahr is jumping around in your hand / my hunch is its a combination of the size and type of grip on it that's the real issue vs a 9mm or .40S&W caliber.
I keep looking at some of these smaller guns / Sig 238, Kahr, etc ... and after renting and shooting some of them, the reality for me, is they just don't fit my hands very well. The grip area just isn't big enough for me to firmly get a grip on the guns ..so I'm not very effective with them - especially in rapid fire ....( doing a drill like drawing from a holster - and putting 2 shots on a target in 3 sec ) / a drill I can do easily with a 5" 1911 ....I just can't do with most of these smaller frame guns ..../especially if I mix in a reload ---3 taps, reload, 3 taps ...my groups get pretty big with these small guns.
For me the solution was to go to a Sig 239 or to a 1911 in 4". On the Sig 239's I replaced the stock grips with Hogue, finger groove grips - to fill out my hands better / and I have one in 9mm and one in .40S&W now. Shooting the 9mm with 147gr Hydra Shoks / and the .40 with 180gr Hydra Shoks --have both been very effective for me. I'm reasonably quick with them - and I don't notice the extra recoil from the one in .40S&W ( because it fits me well). The other option I have - for a light carry gun - is a Kimber Tactical Pro II model, 4", in 9mm. Its an alloy frame gun / thin and easy to carry ...and with 147gr Hydra Shoks in it / its an effective gun as well.
My primary range and competition guns ( in Sigs - I like the full sized 226's in 9mm and .40S&W ) and in full sized 1911's - 5", stainless ...in 9mm, .40S&W or .45acp .......so I go to them, in the winter for a carry, I carry a 5" 1911 in .45 acp ....but I like the Sig 239's or the smaller Kimber as summer options.
We all have different sized hands, long or short fingers, some arthritis, etc ...and all that means picking a gun, especially a smaller gun, becomes a big deal. Since that Kahr is jumping around in your hand / my hunch is its a combination of the size and type of grip on it that's the real issue vs a 9mm or .40S&W caliber.
I keep looking at some of these smaller guns / Sig 238, Kahr, etc ... and after renting and shooting some of them, the reality for me, is they just don't fit my hands very well. The grip area just isn't big enough for me to firmly get a grip on the guns ..so I'm not very effective with them - especially in rapid fire ....( doing a drill like drawing from a holster - and putting 2 shots on a target in 3 sec ) / a drill I can do easily with a 5" 1911 ....I just can't do with most of these smaller frame guns ..../especially if I mix in a reload ---3 taps, reload, 3 taps ...my groups get pretty big with these small guns.
For me the solution was to go to a Sig 239 or to a 1911 in 4". On the Sig 239's I replaced the stock grips with Hogue, finger groove grips - to fill out my hands better / and I have one in 9mm and one in .40S&W now. Shooting the 9mm with 147gr Hydra Shoks / and the .40 with 180gr Hydra Shoks --have both been very effective for me. I'm reasonably quick with them - and I don't notice the extra recoil from the one in .40S&W ( because it fits me well). The other option I have - for a light carry gun - is a Kimber Tactical Pro II model, 4", in 9mm. Its an alloy frame gun / thin and easy to carry ...and with 147gr Hydra Shoks in it / its an effective gun as well.
My primary range and competition guns ( in Sigs - I like the full sized 226's in 9mm and .40S&W ) and in full sized 1911's - 5", stainless ...in 9mm, .40S&W or .45acp .......so I go to them, in the winter for a carry, I carry a 5" 1911 in .45 acp ....but I like the Sig 239's or the smaller Kimber as summer options.
LanceOregon
Moderator
The Sig P239 is indeed an excellent pistol in all respects. However, it is significantly heavier and larger than a Walther PPS.
Here we see the .40 S&W Walther PPS on the right, compared to a .40 S&W Sig P239 on the left:
As I said, I've owned and shot a lot of different guns in .40 S&W.
Here we see the .40 S&W Walther PPS on the right, compared to a .40 S&W Sig P239 on the left:
As I said, I've owned and shot a lot of different guns in .40 S&W.
LockedBreech
New member
I have never understood the supposedly unbearable recoil of the .40. My main is a .40, and I have never had any problems with it, so the other day at Impact Guns in Ogden, UT I shot about 5 guns in 9mm and 5 in .40, including Beretta and Glock (my PX4 and my brother's G22), Beretta 92FS, Sig 226, Walther PPS is both, and several others (a CZ, two more Glock models, a few I likely forget)
I truly don't feel much of a difference. My shot patterns with the calibers look nearly identical.
Perhaps it has to do with the shape of a persons hands (mine are quite large).
I truly don't feel much of a difference. My shot patterns with the calibers look nearly identical.
Perhaps it has to do with the shape of a persons hands (mine are quite large).
crazy charlie
New member
I think 'snappy' is a good description of the recoil in my Sigma 40GVE. Only because the weapon is light to start with. With a full mag follow up shots are pretty consistent. Only with rapid fire, as the weapon gets lighter, recovery gets worse, but with practice this can be overcome.
I own both a 40 cal. Sigma & a 9 mm Ruger SR 9.
The recoil isn't that hard to me on either handgun.
I am of a smaller size about 145 lbs. , 5ft. 6 in , both handguns fit comfortable for my handsize & weight.
I asked this question on another forum about a little less than a year ago.
I found out then , people love their calibers in handguns.
The recoil isn't that hard to me on either handgun.
I am of a smaller size about 145 lbs. , 5ft. 6 in , both handguns fit comfortable for my handsize & weight.
I asked this question on another forum about a little less than a year ago.
I found out then , people love their calibers in handguns.
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FoxtrotRomeo
New member
From firing quite a few different handgun rounds and different handguns this is what I have to say.
What you mix together in terms of pistol + bullet grains + powder amount + powder burn rate+ can give you an idea what the felt recoil is gonna be.
I've shot .22 LR, .22 Short .380 Auto, 40 S&W, .45 ACP, .45 Colt, .44 special, .44 Mag, .460 S&W Magnum and rifle rounds galore.
Speaking JUST about factory loads only, here's my 2 cents.
9mm typically has a higher velocity than standard pressure .45 Colt and ACP rounds. Standard pressure is what I'm talking about here. I've seen the numbers and a friend of mine operate a 9mm. Snappy is the word.
.40 S&W is some what similar. I actually have experience with .40 S&W, I own an XD-40 Service Model. As long as I lock my elbow, I have no problems at all with the snappiness of it.
The other factor is mass. I have learned that mass absorbs recoil when you have enough of it. My Desert Eagle when I lock my elbow is easy to use and when I load up Winchester Super X .45 Colt (Listed at 830 fps) into the 460V the front sight barely moves up from recoil at all even if I don't lock my elbow. Factory .460 rounds though, are brute recoil as is the .500 I have no doubt. Those rounds will let me know if I'm slackin on any technique.
Some people don't like big and heavy and that's cool and I understand that. But I work out and I'm a big strong dude so it doesn't matter to me too much.
I do like lighter handguns with a snappy recoil for one reason though. I have found that they are great for working on your technique. If I'm not doing my part, my XD-40 lets me know without breaking the bank for the ammo.
What you mix together in terms of pistol + bullet grains + powder amount + powder burn rate+ can give you an idea what the felt recoil is gonna be.
I've shot .22 LR, .22 Short .380 Auto, 40 S&W, .45 ACP, .45 Colt, .44 special, .44 Mag, .460 S&W Magnum and rifle rounds galore.
Speaking JUST about factory loads only, here's my 2 cents.
9mm typically has a higher velocity than standard pressure .45 Colt and ACP rounds. Standard pressure is what I'm talking about here. I've seen the numbers and a friend of mine operate a 9mm. Snappy is the word.
.40 S&W is some what similar. I actually have experience with .40 S&W, I own an XD-40 Service Model. As long as I lock my elbow, I have no problems at all with the snappiness of it.
The other factor is mass. I have learned that mass absorbs recoil when you have enough of it. My Desert Eagle when I lock my elbow is easy to use and when I load up Winchester Super X .45 Colt (Listed at 830 fps) into the 460V the front sight barely moves up from recoil at all even if I don't lock my elbow. Factory .460 rounds though, are brute recoil as is the .500 I have no doubt. Those rounds will let me know if I'm slackin on any technique.
Some people don't like big and heavy and that's cool and I understand that. But I work out and I'm a big strong dude so it doesn't matter to me too much.
I do like lighter handguns with a snappy recoil for one reason though. I have found that they are great for working on your technique. If I'm not doing my part, my XD-40 lets me know without breaking the bank for the ammo.