.40 S&W or .357 Sig - Which will Penetrate Better?

D

DougB

New member
In a situation where penetration is more important than expansion, which of these cartridges will penetrate better? I'd feel pretty good if I could duplicate a heavily loaded .357 Magnum with a 160g softpoint or hard cast bullet, but I understand that the .357 Sig works best with lighter bullets. The .40 could use heavy bullets, but the larger diameter and lower velocity might hurt penetration.

I'm looking for effectiveness against Mountain lion and black bear. Please resist the urge to "set me straight" and recommend other calibers (unless I can shoot them from a Kel-tec Pll or similar pistol). That angle has been beaten to death. I know these aren't bear cartridges, but I want to know which of these two would penetrate the best through bone, etc, and what loads you would recommend for this purpose. Thanks.

Doug
 
Neither one of these cartridges will perform well for bear and cougar protection. It is nothing more than a false sense of security. The job you discribe belongs to the big magnums (41, 44 and 45) from a wheel gun. Semi auto pistols need not apply.

I was attacked by a cougar last year. He ate three warm 357 Magnum jacketed hollow points. Although it ruined his appetite, the bullets failed to drop him. He exited under full power. I just hate to imagine if it was a angry bear. That would have been ugly. For Me!

Robert



[This message has been edited by Robert the41MagFan (edited August 16, 2000).]
 
Actually, neither the .40 nor the .357.... just kidding.

I'd go with the .357. It seems like both rounds carry about the same amount of powder (possibly a little more in the .40, but not much). Anyway, shooting equivalent weight bullets out of each, the .357 should have less drag, and thus should penetrate deeper.
 
Actually, neither the .40 nor the .357.... just kidding.

I'd go with the .357. It seems like both rounds carry about the same amount of powder (possibly a little more in the .40, but not much). Anyway, shooting equivalent weight bullets out of each, the .357 should have less drag, and thus should penetrate deeper.
 
For best penetration (using YOUR parameters) recommend a .400" 180g FMJ at minimum!!! 1000fps.

357 SIG need not apply.

False sense of security, but much better than throwing rocks.

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"All my ammo is factory ammo"
 
Best thing to do is get yourself some phone books and do some penetration tests. I think those rounds will perform about the same, but you might as well see for yourself.

As for defense against a cougar I think those rounds will do just fine. Might not kill it, but cougars are skittish and tend to run off when they think they might get hurt.

Bears are a different story since they sometimes go crazy when injured.

I recommend you practice emptying an entire 10 round clip as fast as possible with relatively good accuracy. Don't plan on succeeding with just one or two rounds. Plan to let 'em have it.

Other than that, you might wanna consider having a .30-06 as a backup gun. (Sorry, couldn't help it ;) )

tstr
 
I have Both and I have done some ballistics testing and it is my belief that a hot .40 like cor-bon or good handloads would suit you better

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SOME PEOPLE ARE ALIVE ONLY BECAUSE IT IS ILLEGAL TO KILL THEM
 
Depends on the load you select. Some 40s, even some 9s/45s, will go deeper than some 357 SIG loads after cloth/hide.

Gold Dots and XTPs would be my JHP choice on cats, nothing but FMJ for bear, 125 in the 357, full power 165 in the 40.

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http://home.att.net/~brokenarrrow/
 
In a Semi-Auto, I'm thinking a 10mm +P is going to be the closest thing you can get to an anti-bear caliber...

My friend's dad, put a clip of 9mm's into a bear. You know what that did? Pissed it off, that's right. You know what he ended up dropping the bear with? A x-bow with a 1lbs bolt.

Given that 11 shots of 9mm did nothing more than pissed the bear off, I'd say that it's your preference, 40 or .357Sig, you aren't going to drop him with either, unless you shot it down the throat, in the nose, or in the eye. Keep in mind that a bear getting bit by another bear leaves a nice 2 inch wide hole that is about 3-6 inches deep, and they still survive. Sooooo....

This is what you need:
http://fss-g.com

Get your Glock, get one of these, set it to full auto, get a hi-cap magazine, and squeeze the entire clip into the bear... Maybe if you shot it in the same hole...

Happy hunting!! (errr... don't do it... don't say it.... arrrg, must fight the power ... Damn, can't resist!)

Shoot him with a .376Steyr, be realistic..

Albert
 
Article in this months Handguns about an NYPD officer who dropped a polar bear with one shot from his 38 Special. :)

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http://home.att.net/~brokenarrrow/
 
As a general rule, penetration is better when pressure in the target area is higher. With same amount of energy smaller diameter bullet penetrates better, all other things being equal. Non-expanding bullets penetrate better, and when maximum penetration is needed in any caliber a FMJ bullet construction is superior to JHP and JSP (of course AP ammo w/ penetrator even better).

A .357 Sig FMJ should be a good penetrator, because it is about equivalent to a hot 9mm FMJ fired from a submachinegun/carbine barrel. That means penetration about equivalent to 44 Mag with JSP, according to body armor threat level tables. Level IIIA vests are made to stop 44 Mag and 9mm from subguns/carbines (w/ velocities about equal to .357 Sig from handgun), while lower level vests stop .40 S&W. So .357 Sig FMJ will surely penetrate more than a similarly shaped .40 S&W FMJ.

Notice that .45 ACP is about the worst penetrator of common pistol calibers, so going to larger diameter w/ lower speed makes penetration worse. Going to more speed leads to the direction of rifle calibers, and they are superior penetrators compared to handguns, even with light bullets.

Ossi
 
357sig. Smaller bullet going faster. Thats why Highway Patrols are going to the 357sig. More penetration of auto bodies.
 
Thanks for all the replies (I even got a smile out of the apparently inevitable "get a big magnum revolver/rifle" comments).

If I had access to handguns in both these calibers (I don't), I would really like to do a "bear test" by shooting through something like alternating layers of 1/4" plywood and wet newspaper or something just to see which does better. I suspect that, given similar bullet types and maximum velocities, the .357 sig would go through more, but I'm not sure. The .357Sig is probably better at penetrating steel auto bodies, but I wonder if a heavier, slower bullet would be better on meat and bone (I've heard that large slow calibers like the 45-70 penetrate very well on game). Anyway, further comments are welcome. Thanks.

Doug
 
Phonebook is the answer. Soak the phonebook, I'm guessing that the .40 will make it to somewhere around the "Dentist" section, while the .357Sig will make it to "Flowers" or so.

Happy hunting!

Albert
 
WESHOOT2

The puny 40 short and weak need not apply.
The 180 grain 40 at 950 with a fmj penitrates 25 inches in gelatin while a 125 grain 357 sig 125 grain fmj at 1400 goes 32 inches. ALso no safe 40 load is going over 1000 with a 180 grain load.
PAT

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I intend to go into harms way.
 
355sigman,


He did not ask about shooting phone books or gelatin, and none of my ammo is safe.

Know what I mean?

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"All my ammo is factory ammo"
 
357 Gold Dot, 1413 fps/SIG P226:

cloth 17.5/.52
steel 15/.55
glass 13/.55

180/40 Golden Saber:

cloth 17/.63
steel 19.8/.48
glass 13.3/.50

185/45 GS:

cloth 16/.68
steel 20/.50
glass 13.3/.55

230/45 GS:

cloth 18.9/.73
steel 16/.55
glass 17.4/.59

From Texas DPS and FBI tests.

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>>>>---->
http://home.att.net/~brokenarrrow/
 
With either pistol you buy make sure you file off the front sight! That way it will not hurt as much when they are removing it for your back side.

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Know of that you speak,
Amos
 
This point hasn't been touched yet, so I thought I would. If you're gonna shoot a big, mean, nasty animal like a bear or cougar, .357sig or .40S&W may not cut it coming from a 3" barrel like that P11 you mentioned, unless God is smiling on you big time that day. I am NO revolver man, so I'm with you on the semi-auto all the way thing, but make sure the barrel's long enough to wring every bit of velocity out of whichever bullet you decide to get.

Oh yeah, one other thing on your side... I'd personally rather shoot a cougar 12 times in 5 seconds with a Glock 23 than 5 times in 5 seconds with a S&W 357 revolver!

good luck, and AIM WELL!!!

[This message has been edited by Onslaught (edited August 22, 2000).]
 
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