The YouTube video shows good combat accuracy, whihc has been mentioned. With a stock Glock and FMJ ammo. That in no way demonstrates great accuracy like you would see in bullseye competition. It certainly shows the .40 S&W is plenty good in a stock pistol for self defense accuracy. In the right pistol/barrel it probably would be as accurate as the .45 or 9mm for bullseye.
.40 S&W Caliber Cartridge not Accurate?
- Thread starter Geek-With-A-Gun
- Start date
guns
The central idea here is that the accuracy changed with the firearm. I'd have been unenthused about the S&W 4006. It was the guns that were more or less accurate, not the cartridge itself.
That idea was my first thought upon reading the OP - cartridges are not inaccurate, firearms are. (though that earlier point about the 40 being supersonic pretty much always is food for thought).
Pete
The central idea here is that the accuracy changed with the firearm. I'd have been unenthused about the S&W 4006. It was the guns that were more or less accurate, not the cartridge itself.
That idea was my first thought upon reading the OP - cartridges are not inaccurate, firearms are. (though that earlier point about the 40 being supersonic pretty much always is food for thought).
Pete
Action_Can_Do
New member
I also read the article the OP did, and I just don't buy it. I've seen (and shot) some fantastically accurate groups with a 10mm. The 10 is almost always supersonic and fires the same bullets as the 40.
oldman1946
New member
One more point
Shooting paper targets allow for a lot of proper stance and good sight acquisition.
The trouble is shooting under stress when someone is shooting at you while trying to kill you is a lot different. Paper targets do not shoot back.
When under fire, proper sight alignment and stance becomes secondary to staying alive. I have shot from behind a wheel of a Mustang while laying on my back looking from under the radiator. Then shooting becomes a matter of pray and spray.
A .40 will get you in the ballpark under stress.
I assure you that .40, 45, .44 or .357 mag will do the job just fine. Pin point accuracy is not required.
For those defending the 9mm, you have the right to love the gun you shoot. However a close look at what the 9mm will not penetrate may change the caliber you shoot. I have seen bullets from a 9mm fail to penetrate a driver door on a jeep, a windshield on a Taurus and a trunk lid on a Olds Cutlas. Many depts went to other calibers when they saw the 9mm was under powered. The first LEO shooting here with the 9mm failed horribly when it took 16 rounds to bring the perp down A shooting a few months later took more than that and the perp survived. Not ong after that one, the dept went to .40 and we have not had another problem with penetration or stoppage.
Shooting paper targets allow for a lot of proper stance and good sight acquisition.
The trouble is shooting under stress when someone is shooting at you while trying to kill you is a lot different. Paper targets do not shoot back.
When under fire, proper sight alignment and stance becomes secondary to staying alive. I have shot from behind a wheel of a Mustang while laying on my back looking from under the radiator. Then shooting becomes a matter of pray and spray.
A .40 will get you in the ballpark under stress.
I assure you that .40, 45, .44 or .357 mag will do the job just fine. Pin point accuracy is not required.
For those defending the 9mm, you have the right to love the gun you shoot. However a close look at what the 9mm will not penetrate may change the caliber you shoot. I have seen bullets from a 9mm fail to penetrate a driver door on a jeep, a windshield on a Taurus and a trunk lid on a Olds Cutlas. Many depts went to other calibers when they saw the 9mm was under powered. The first LEO shooting here with the 9mm failed horribly when it took 16 rounds to bring the perp down A shooting a few months later took more than that and the perp survived. Not ong after that one, the dept went to .40 and we have not had another problem with penetration or stoppage.
HOGWASH!
The whole "one caliber is less accurate than another" thing is another one of those firearms myths. From a ballistics standpoint, I don't see how you can even begin to call one caliber more accurate than another. The 40 is its own unique round, not the halfway point between a 9mm and .45 that may would have you believe.
In my experience, it is more about what type of recoil people shoot better with that determines accuracy. The .40 has a snappy, jerky recoil to it. The .45 has more of a push. The 9mm has a slight nudge to it. This is, of course, completely dependent upon the platform. They all take getting used to, and someone who predominately shoots 45s are going to shoot 40s less accurately until they get a great deal of experience with it. Take out the human factor, keep all things equal, allow for ballistic differences, and every caliber is as accurate as the other.
The whole "one caliber is less accurate than another" thing is another one of those firearms myths. From a ballistics standpoint, I don't see how you can even begin to call one caliber more accurate than another. The 40 is its own unique round, not the halfway point between a 9mm and .45 that may would have you believe.
In my experience, it is more about what type of recoil people shoot better with that determines accuracy. The .40 has a snappy, jerky recoil to it. The .45 has more of a push. The 9mm has a slight nudge to it. This is, of course, completely dependent upon the platform. They all take getting used to, and someone who predominately shoots 45s are going to shoot 40s less accurately until they get a great deal of experience with it. Take out the human factor, keep all things equal, allow for ballistic differences, and every caliber is as accurate as the other.
rifle
I can, and do, make ammo for both pistols and rifles that is more accurate than factory ammo. I have, as have you, had the experience of shooting three inches with one kind of load and then 1/2" with another from the same rifle.
The question here is whether a particular cartridge is inherently accurate or not. When fired from a variety of different firearms, the same loading may be accurate in one and not in another; that is true, also, of precision loads in rifles. A loading that produces marvelously small groups in your rifle may be just so-so in mine. And there are rifles that aren't going to shoot either your fine loads or mine, or anything else, well. It's the firearm that makes the difference. (If I take my 1/2" MOA HBar load and shoot it from a Mini-14, it's not going to shoot 1/2", more likely 3 MOA).
After my last post, I was thinking about this at greater length. The comparison that popped into my head was between the .25 ACP and the .44 Magnum.
Is the .25 inherently less accurate than the .44? I suspect that most people would say "yes". (I probably shouldn't think and answer for others, I know.) The limitation is the gun. Look at what is available for the .25 as compared to what can be had for the .44.
Suppose one was able to shoot them from the same type of handgun at a distance appropriate to the .25?
I'm willing to bet that a .25 ACP cartridge fired from a 10" barreled T/C Contender at 15 yards would be just as accurate as a .44 fired from the same gun at the same distance.
Pete
AK - You are, of course, correct - about rifles and the importance of good ammo. I don't see that the comparison is apt in this discussion.
I can, and do, make ammo for both pistols and rifles that is more accurate than factory ammo. I have, as have you, had the experience of shooting three inches with one kind of load and then 1/2" with another from the same rifle.
The question here is whether a particular cartridge is inherently accurate or not. When fired from a variety of different firearms, the same loading may be accurate in one and not in another; that is true, also, of precision loads in rifles. A loading that produces marvelously small groups in your rifle may be just so-so in mine. And there are rifles that aren't going to shoot either your fine loads or mine, or anything else, well. It's the firearm that makes the difference. (If I take my 1/2" MOA HBar load and shoot it from a Mini-14, it's not going to shoot 1/2", more likely 3 MOA).
After my last post, I was thinking about this at greater length. The comparison that popped into my head was between the .25 ACP and the .44 Magnum.
Is the .25 inherently less accurate than the .44? I suspect that most people would say "yes". (I probably shouldn't think and answer for others, I know.) The limitation is the gun. Look at what is available for the .25 as compared to what can be had for the .44.
Suppose one was able to shoot them from the same type of handgun at a distance appropriate to the .25?
I'm willing to bet that a .25 ACP cartridge fired from a 10" barreled T/C Contender at 15 yards would be just as accurate as a .44 fired from the same gun at the same distance.
Pete
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Gott Mit Uns
New member
The .40 is just a nasty cartridge
Most other rounds are more accurate, and it is just a muzzle-energy-hype cartridge for utilitarian uses. NEVER get a .40 for target shooting. Bad Bad Bad. ALWAYS get 9mm.
Most other rounds are more accurate, and it is just a muzzle-energy-hype cartridge for utilitarian uses. NEVER get a .40 for target shooting. Bad Bad Bad. ALWAYS get 9mm.
oldman1946
New member
Well
"I'm willing to bet that a .25 ACP cartridge fired from a 10" barreled T/C Contender at 15 yards would be just as accurate as a .44 fired from the same gun at the same distance."
I doubt the same gun could fire both types of ammo. <g>
Ammo does make a difference. I have a Clark Custom 1911 and it is a great gun but it hates most ammo and loves Winchester. Far more accurate using certain types of Winchester ammo when on a Ransom Rest.
One of my Glocks hates any flat nose ammo but shoots hp very nicely.
"I'm willing to bet that a .25 ACP cartridge fired from a 10" barreled T/C Contender at 15 yards would be just as accurate as a .44 fired from the same gun at the same distance."
I doubt the same gun could fire both types of ammo. <g>
Ammo does make a difference. I have a Clark Custom 1911 and it is a great gun but it hates most ammo and loves Winchester. Far more accurate using certain types of Winchester ammo when on a Ransom Rest.
One of my Glocks hates any flat nose ammo but shoots hp very nicely.
Well, thats a definite "maybe".
In that case, I agree with you. In another, I've seen a buddy shoot a 2" J frame at 100 yards and do better than some people I know who shoot regularly with rifles at the same distance.
I think your right with the .25/.44 out of the Contender too.
Personally, I think the shooter is usually the weakest link, but thats me.
I would think if you had two good shooters, each with a good shooting gun they liked, using quality ammo the gun liked, I think you'd be hard pressed to decide what caliber was the better when comparing targets.
"My question would be "Why would you use a 40 for bullseye shooting anyway"?"
The answer is they'd use it if it worked for them. Competitors use what works and what wins for them. They are constantly trying new gear in an effort to gain an edge or pick up a point or two. They'd shoot square bullets if they cut more centers than what they're currently using.
The fact is, they don't use .40.
John
P.S. - In addition to the .22 rimfire and .45 matches, there is a third.
".2.2 What kind of centerfire pistol should I use?
The rules allow any centerfire pistol of .32 caliber or greater to be used in the centerfire phase. Some shooters like the lower recoil of a smaller centerfire caliber and use a third gun. The rules also allow a lighter trigger pull on a centerfire gun. Here are some of the more common options: "
The answer is they'd use it if it worked for them. Competitors use what works and what wins for them. They are constantly trying new gear in an effort to gain an edge or pick up a point or two. They'd shoot square bullets if they cut more centers than what they're currently using.
The fact is, they don't use .40.
John
P.S. - In addition to the .22 rimfire and .45 matches, there is a third.
".2.2 What kind of centerfire pistol should I use?
The rules allow any centerfire pistol of .32 caliber or greater to be used in the centerfire phase. Some shooters like the lower recoil of a smaller centerfire caliber and use a third gun. The rules also allow a lighter trigger pull on a centerfire gun. Here are some of the more common options: "
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MemphisJim
New member
How does one address accuracy issues? I have semis in most of the usual calibers (Sig P6/P225, Glock 19, and Sig P228 - all 9mm; Sig P229 - .40S&W; Sig P220 - .45 ACP; S&W 686-4 - .357 Mag/.38Spl) along with a fair selection of .22s (Ruger Single Six and Bearcat; Ruger MkII 22/45; and a pair of Sig Mosquitos). I go to the range almost every week and rotate through one of the .22s and two of the others in each session. Some days freehand I'm dead-on; other days I can't buy the 10-ring with a $20 bill and "ringer" shooting for me. From rest, regardless of caliber, I terrorize the 9s and 10s. I'm long since reconciled to the idea mine is a "shooter" problem, not a gun or ammo problem. So, I shall happily continue to shoot them all and like the man said when asked how to get to Carnegie Hall? "Practice, man, practice..."
jamestajames
Inactive
.40 caliber
I would post pictures of this but it does it prove anything over the internet unless it's a video, so let me say this: I have 9 handguns. Of the 9, my most accurate is an H&K USP .40. Standing at 25 yards, I shot a 2.75 inch group. Who know what the accuracy truly is when rested and using Hornady ammo; I've not wanted to waste money trying to figure it out because you don't need it more accurate than that honestly. I shot a sub inch group at 11 yards rested though, one solid hole with Hornady ammo. The 2.75 inch group at 25 yards was PMC, surprisingly. 180 grain maybe? But in short, with the right trigger control, ammo, and gun, you can get sub 3 inch groups STANDING with .40 bullets. Hope this helped.
I would post pictures of this but it does it prove anything over the internet unless it's a video, so let me say this: I have 9 handguns. Of the 9, my most accurate is an H&K USP .40. Standing at 25 yards, I shot a 2.75 inch group. Who know what the accuracy truly is when rested and using Hornady ammo; I've not wanted to waste money trying to figure it out because you don't need it more accurate than that honestly. I shot a sub inch group at 11 yards rested though, one solid hole with Hornady ammo. The 2.75 inch group at 25 yards was PMC, surprisingly. 180 grain maybe? But in short, with the right trigger control, ammo, and gun, you can get sub 3 inch groups STANDING with .40 bullets. Hope this helped.
Maybe at first I would have partially agreed with him. There was something different about the 40, some manufacturers had difficulty at first getting everything right. One example is the Hi Powers that were made right after 40 came out, they were scary. Another was the Beretta 96D I was issued.
LockedBreech
New member
.40 is as accurate as any service cartridge, especially in loads meant for combat.
My PX4 in my hands is quite precise.
My PX4 in my hands is quite precise.