ScottRiqui
New member
I don't know if you can say "most", and we haven't really defined what "modern" means, but I'll add the Glock 21 at 13+1 and the FNP45 at 14+1.
.40 penetration vs .45 penetration
- Thread starter Super-Dave
- Start date
I don't know if you can say "most", and we haven't really defined what "modern" means, but I'll add the Glock 21 at 13+1 and the FNP45 at 14+1.
SuperDave said:
Old Grump has part of the answer (higher mag capacity) but it needs a little fleshing out.
The military wanted to move from the 1911 .45 acp to a higher capacity 9mm in the 1970s. Manufacturers developed models such as the Beretta 92 and the Sig P226. These worked their way into the civilian market with some of the bad guys, especially drug traffickers, among the first to adopt the hi-cap pistols.
Law enforcement then began to move to hi-cap pistols, primarily in 9mm. However, some perceived shortcomings were noted in the 9mm. Following the 1986 Miami Shootout between the FBI and a couple of bank robbers, the FBI decided the 9mm cartridge was inadequate for their needs. They then adopted the SW Model 1076 in 10mm. It only held 9 rounds but that was more than the the 1911 .45 acp and was in double action, a perceived advantage for law enforcement use for the typical officer/agent.
The FBI discovered the 10mm from the 1076 was uncomfortable for some shooters because of recoil. This led to the direct development of the .40 SW cartridge, a lowered powered round but which still had more punch than the 9mm. Smith and Wesson and Glock both quickly introduced hi-cap pistols using staggered magazines in the .40 SW caliber. The SW 4006 had an 11-round capacity and the Glock 22/23 had capacities of 15/13 rounds.
So, the .40 SW was seen as a cartridge that was powerful enough to be effective and still have increased capacity over the six-shooters. Eventually, most law enforcement agencies transitioned to the .40 SW.
But what about the .45 acp? Until very recently, "hi-cap" .45s were more of a novelty than a mainstream gun and, in order to make them "hi-cap," the grip circumference becomes too great for many shooters.
Being happy with the cartridge and the handguns built for them, it would be really tough for a new cartridge to supplant the .40 SW. It took many decades for the .40 SW to supplant the .38 spl. While I really like the .45 acp cartridge myself, I just can't see a lot of major law enforcement agencies moving to it.
Old Grump has part of the answer (higher mag capacity) but it needs a little fleshing out.
The military wanted to move from the 1911 .45 acp to a higher capacity 9mm in the 1970s. Manufacturers developed models such as the Beretta 92 and the Sig P226. These worked their way into the civilian market with some of the bad guys, especially drug traffickers, among the first to adopt the hi-cap pistols.
Law enforcement then began to move to hi-cap pistols, primarily in 9mm. However, some perceived shortcomings were noted in the 9mm. Following the 1986 Miami Shootout between the FBI and a couple of bank robbers, the FBI decided the 9mm cartridge was inadequate for their needs. They then adopted the SW Model 1076 in 10mm. It only held 9 rounds but that was more than the the 1911 .45 acp and was in double action, a perceived advantage for law enforcement use for the typical officer/agent.
The FBI discovered the 10mm from the 1076 was uncomfortable for some shooters because of recoil. This led to the direct development of the .40 SW cartridge, a lowered powered round but which still had more punch than the 9mm. Smith and Wesson and Glock both quickly introduced hi-cap pistols using staggered magazines in the .40 SW caliber. The SW 4006 had an 11-round capacity and the Glock 22/23 had capacities of 15/13 rounds.
So, the .40 SW was seen as a cartridge that was powerful enough to be effective and still have increased capacity over the six-shooters. Eventually, most law enforcement agencies transitioned to the .40 SW.
But what about the .45 acp? Until very recently, "hi-cap" .45s were more of a novelty than a mainstream gun and, in order to make them "hi-cap," the grip circumference becomes too great for many shooters.
Being happy with the cartridge and the handguns built for them, it would be really tough for a new cartridge to supplant the .40 SW. It took many decades for the .40 SW to supplant the .38 spl. While I really like the .45 acp cartridge myself, I just can't see a lot of major law enforcement agencies moving to it.
The 1076 was never issued by the FBI with full-powered 10mm ammunition. The FBI settled on their downloaded version of the 10mm based on their penetration testing performed before ever issuing any 10mm pistols or ammunition so the claim that they downloaded the 10mm due to recoil issues with some shooters is not supportable.
The .40S&W was developed independently by S&W when they realized that they could duplicate the FBI's downloaded 10mm in a 9mm length cartridge. The FBI had nothing to do with that and continued to issue 10mm pistols well after the .40S&W came on the market.
JohnKSa --
I don't think what I wrote necessary contradicts you, but you have fortunately cleared up any ambiguity. I said, "The FBI discovered the 10mm from the 1076 was uncomfortable for some shooters because of recoil. This led to the direct development of the .40 SW cartridge . . . ." I left out the intermediate "10mm Lite" because it didn't matter about the point I was trying to make -- a brief history of how and why the .40 SW was adopted and why the preference for the round over the .45 acp by most police agencies.
I don't think what I wrote necessary contradicts you, but you have fortunately cleared up any ambiguity. I said, "The FBI discovered the 10mm from the 1076 was uncomfortable for some shooters because of recoil. This led to the direct development of the .40 SW cartridge . . . ." I left out the intermediate "10mm Lite" because it didn't matter about the point I was trying to make -- a brief history of how and why the .40 SW was adopted and why the preference for the round over the .45 acp by most police agencies.
Short answer,
YES 4.0 penetrates better than .45 ACP. It also kicks more, and for most uses is fine for civilian use.
Long answer,
.40 is a round looking for a problem. The 9mm with ( best case) hollows carries more ammo, is easier to shoot for most.
The .45 is more user friendly in terms of follow up shots than .40 in most guns, operates with a larger margin of safety ( in most guns).
All of these rounds can over penitrate in FMJ in SD situations.
YES 4.0 penetrates better than .45 ACP. It also kicks more, and for most uses is fine for civilian use.
Long answer,
.40 is a round looking for a problem. The 9mm with ( best case) hollows carries more ammo, is easier to shoot for most.
The .45 is more user friendly in terms of follow up shots than .40 in most guns, operates with a larger margin of safety ( in most guns).
All of these rounds can over penitrate in FMJ in SD situations.
CarbineCaleb
New member
Yes
If you make everything else equal, by using the same bullet design and the same sectional density (180gr .40S&W = 230gr .45ACP), then yes, the .40S&W penetrates better than the .45ACP.
If you make everything else equal, by using the same bullet design and the same sectional density (180gr .40S&W = 230gr .45ACP), then yes, the .40S&W penetrates better than the .45ACP.
BusGunner007
New member
I like the .40 enough to use it instead of 9mm or .45
I think it's a good cartridge.
I think it's a good cartridge.
Back in post #2 Katana8869 posted a link to the Box O' Truth and the many tests they did shooting through cars and a wide variety of things with a variety of ammo, 9mm, .45acp, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, etc.. I'll repost the link...
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm
Take some time to knock about the site. There is no rush. One thing that you will see is that in terms of penetration the construction of the bullet has more to do with penetration than does caliber when it comes to standard service calibers (within certain parameters of course.)
When a fella says that the .40 out penetrates the .45 acp they have made a mistake due to overgeneralizing. Some loads for the .40 may out penetrate some rounds of the .45 acp in some materials. This will vary some with bullet weight, energy, etc.
The reasons that first the 9mm then the .40 came to dominate (and both those calibers still do by the way) law enforcement have been stated by others. They both work at the job they are intended for. The history of how the .40 came about is an important factor, what rounds the FBI and Justice Dept. approve have a large impact on all law enforcement. The .40 is a more powerful round than the 9mm of course. A gun carrying 12 rounds of 40S&W tends to be physically smaller and is definitely lighter on the hip than one carrying 12 rounds of .45 acp. Penetration is and never has been an issue.
tipoc
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm
Take some time to knock about the site. There is no rush. One thing that you will see is that in terms of penetration the construction of the bullet has more to do with penetration than does caliber when it comes to standard service calibers (within certain parameters of course.)
When a fella says that the .40 out penetrates the .45 acp they have made a mistake due to overgeneralizing. Some loads for the .40 may out penetrate some rounds of the .45 acp in some materials. This will vary some with bullet weight, energy, etc.
The reasons that first the 9mm then the .40 came to dominate (and both those calibers still do by the way) law enforcement have been stated by others. They both work at the job they are intended for. The history of how the .40 came about is an important factor, what rounds the FBI and Justice Dept. approve have a large impact on all law enforcement. The .40 is a more powerful round than the 9mm of course. A gun carrying 12 rounds of 40S&W tends to be physically smaller and is definitely lighter on the hip than one carrying 12 rounds of .45 acp. Penetration is and never has been an issue.
tipoc
mothermopar
New member
Here's the long and short of it: political correctness and money. What's "in" and "acceptable" to the politicians and who's giving the best deal and "kickbacks".
No reasonable handgun that most officers could fire accurately (9mm, 40, 45, etc.) has significant advantages over the other. So that point is moot.
Personally, given the choice, I'd take a 45 ACP (and a 45 Colt snubbie as a BUG) just because of their100+ year track record of effectiveness (and nostalgia).
There are plenty of hi-cap 45 pistols out there that are reliable. Not to say the 1911 is an inferior weapon by any means (I'd carry my Colt 1911 in a heartbeat if allowed to). I'd just pack an extra mag or two.
No reasonable handgun that most officers could fire accurately (9mm, 40, 45, etc.) has significant advantages over the other. So that point is moot.
Personally, given the choice, I'd take a 45 ACP (and a 45 Colt snubbie as a BUG) just because of their100+ year track record of effectiveness (and nostalgia).
There are plenty of hi-cap 45 pistols out there that are reliable. Not to say the 1911 is an inferior weapon by any means (I'd carry my Colt 1911 in a heartbeat if allowed to). I'd just pack an extra mag or two.
Cheapshooter
New member
Take a look at this photo:
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Misc_Images/DocGKR/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg
It is part of this study:
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Misc_Images/DocGKR/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg
It is part of this study:
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm
I will tend to go out on a limb and say that from what I can tell the .40 is better at drilling holes in cars than the .45 with the same type of bullet in each load. The .45 is well know to be a poor performer on car tin or glass where the higher speed and smaller cross section of the .40 tends to do better. Just basic physics is all and one over looked reasion why the .40 is so popular with PDs now.
Cheapshooter
New member
I posted this without reading the entire OP. It is hard for me to rationalize the need to penetrate windshields, a car body, plywood, and drywall in the realm of personal defense!
I disagree. The .45 can be quite a good performer on auto and truck bodies and glass. There is no reason to "go out on a limb" or suppose about it. Any difference in penetration between the two is inconsequential. A study of the articles on this from the link posted to the "Box O' Truth" should help.
tipoc
We shot up a lot of old cars when I was young, dad in law owned a junk oops strike that, a salvage yard 
we also had demo derbies. A friend had a thompson full auto in 45 acp. It ripped a door in half, busted out the windshields like they were nothing. I trust the 45, it is what I prefer as I know what it can do firsthand.
Puts large holes in dead cattle too.
we also had demo derbies. A friend had a thompson full auto in 45 acp. It ripped a door in half, busted out the windshields like they were nothing. I trust the 45, it is what I prefer as I know what it can do firsthand.Puts large holes in dead cattle too.