.40 cal and police.

I am a 45 man myself, however I sometimes carry my 15 round 9mm and I feel well protected when I do. My normal carry is an 8 round 45acp, but occasionally I will even carry my 5 round 357 magnum. The extra rounds in a 9mm are nice if you want them. I almost never carry a reload with the 9mm, it already has the reload in it, lol. Which is why the military has gone to smaller pistol and rifle rounds. It is easy to carry more rounds plus all your other gear. For police officers, that sidearm is usually all they have, so it needs to perform very well. A 40SW round will always be able to open wider than a 9mm hollow point. It will also be bigger without opening up. It also has more mass and weight. These are good things.

I personally don't own a 40SW, but I can certainly appreciate why so many do. I will stick with 9mm for range and 45acp for carry for now, but if the 40 ever equals the 9mm in price to shoot, I will pick one up. It is already getting closer day by day it would seem.
 
Don't want to start a caliber war just doesn't make sense to me.
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No war, 9MM is cheap and easily available everywhere making it attractive to people who have to buy guns and ammo to arm troops and police officers with. It is a minimum acceptable caliber that is fired in a large variety of guns and can be shot accurately and quickly bu recoil shy people. For the majority who will not do the trigger time it requires for a shooter to become a marksman they rely on large capacity magazines and prayer that one of their bullets will find the target and more prayers that enough bullets will stop the target bad guy from hurting you or anybody else.

Mine sits on the shelf most of the time because my .357 and my 45ACP are more accurate and have more punch. In service I carried a 45, as a civilian my preferred carry gun is my .357. If I need to carry anything more than that you can rest assured it will be a centerfire rifle or a shotgun.
 
The wisdom at one time was big calibers and big bang was what worked.

A bit like diesels of the old day. We had a Mercedes diesel (9mm of its day). Handled like a dream, hot cars were hard put to keep up with it in the twistiness, fuel mileage was to die for as meaninglyess as that was, but it was a dog for acceleration. You better have a half mile to pass.

Now, I own a VW diesel. Horsepower is low, toque is high. I have proved to a number of people that it flat can haul ^%& (call it the current 9mm)

9mm offered the first higher capacity magazines and that's what went to start with.

then the caliber war began due to poor training and tactics by the FBI (as brave as those men were, their organization did not train them how to actually fight).

40 seemed to be the way to go as it got back to larger caliber which all thought worked better, lab results said it was better, FBI said it was better (though for all their foul ups over the years as an organiztion you would think.....) and Glock offered trade in (and then sold the traded in 9mm guns to others!)

What we have now is the laboratory results vs real world.

The tests are good in comparing ammunition, as well as improvement in affects (not shedding jackets, reliable expansion with the hollow point clogged etc).

What it does not do is reflect how effective on caliber is versus another iin the real world. Keep in mind, it’s the real world. Sometimes an outlier will look like its disproved it. All it means is that if you try to go with a single sample , you fool yourself. You are part of a statistics set. Statistics will tell you what the best likely hood of any given outcome. It does not guaranteed it, just gives you what works best the highest percentage of the time.

As others have stated though I will put it a bit different. A bad shot with a 44 magnum is as ineffective as a bad shot placement with a 9mm. A well placed shot with a 9mm is as effective as a 44 magnum. In other words, caliber, bullet grain or velocity does not turn a 44 magnum into a man stopper if the shot is badly placed.

So, 9mm is as effective as 44 magnum and anything in between now (at one time it was not)

What also is true, its all about shot placement.

I have read a number of accounts of officers getting into a gun fight and throwing lead wildly and finally it clicked they were loosing. They made that mental shift, went to shooting with accuracy instead of spraying lead and they stopped the fight.

What you need to do is go into the fight with that mind set. If you have a 40 S&W or a 45 acp, then by all means keep it, just shoot it well.

If you are just getting into it, you are as well off capability wise with a 9mm and one of the good self defense rounds. You may be better off as you can shoot it better and you have more rounds (keeping in mind those spare rounds should be a reserve for another target if needed, do not waste them)

9mm is usually less expensive and you can practice more.

So, you can use statics to your advantage and get the best possible outcome. Practice and shooting well are the only two that count. Anything that improves those two is what leverages that data for the best possible outcome (not guaranteed of which we only have two of those in life!
 
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Just to jump in with a couple more feet -

I've shot a lot of rounds in all three calibers, but my preference remains with the .40 S&W. Even with the newer, improved ammunition, the 9mm just seems to be underpowered. Now, I do have a slight bias, since the ideal round for a police officer would be a revolver chambered in .357 Magnum. :eek::eek:

I used to own a Glock 27, but finally sold it, because it just never felt like right frame for the caliber. I have tried Models 22 and 23, but they just don't suit me, especially the Gen 4 models. I tried the H&K USP mid-size, in .40 S&W, but like the Glock, it never felt right.

If I ever moved over to a larger framed semiautomatic, I would carry one of two Browning HP35's that I own, both chambered in .40 S&W. It feels like the ideal round for that platform. In a larger caliber (.45 ACP), I've really come to appreciate the "Commander"-size 1911's.

I can see why PD's are using the .40 S&W. It's a compromise between 9mm and .45 ACP, but what a compromise.

My only remaining question in this discussion, is why there aren't more "Commander"-size semiautomatics in .40 S&W. It seems almost too obvious for a choice.

Or, are we talking about a bit too much pressure on the frame, slide, etc.?
 
Many gun owners & armed professionals discuss the Platt-Matix incident(1986, Florida) but the 1997 Bank of America LAPD incident was significant too.
The LAPD later changed the SOPs and allowed patrol cops & detectives to pack .45acp S&W duty pistols and the Beretta 96 series .40S&W.
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While I don't argue that .45 ACP and .40 S&W are both fine defensive cartridges, using the North Hollywood Shootout as justification for them is one of the silliest gun-related rationales one is likely to hear.

The primary reason that the LAPD had such difficulty with Phillips and Mătăsăreanu was not because their firearms lacked "stopping power" but rather because both of the bank robbers were wearing body armor and the officers on the scene did not have firearms capable of penetrating it. While the debate over which cartridge is most effective may be continued to ad nauseum, it is a fact that none of the three cartridges under discussion would have been capable of penetrating Phillips' or Mătăsăreanu's body armor with commonly available ammunition. What the officers involved in the North Hollywood Shootout truly needed was not a larger caliber handgun, but a centerfire rifle.
 
Why not 9mm?

I think the timeline went something like this: Miami Dade County shootout where basically one bad guy (the other bad guy only got off one round of 12 gauge #6 birdshot) almost took out a slew of FBI agents after he had by hit by a well-placed 9mm. Two agents killed, five of the remaining six agents wounded. The FBI, in their search for something bigger and badder, settled on the 10mm; only to find it was a little too big and bad. Tried to tame the 10mm, during testing, by downloading to a lower power dubbed the “10mm Lite” or “FBI Load,” only to discover the 10mm platform was still one hunk of gun to hold and hide. Enter the 40S&W which could be loaded to FBI lite specs, built on a slightly modified 9mm platform and carry more rounds than the venerable .45ACP.

When the FBI drank the Kool-Aid, the other lawmen (or to be PC, would it be lawpeople?) all queued up to swig from the vat. Only lately has anyone dared to question the conventional wisdom of the early 90’s.

While the popular 40S&W may in part have had its genesis in the Miami Dade County encounter, a careful reading of event, along with other shootouts(see North Hollywood for example), leads me to believe the mid to long range weapon of choice is something along the lines of a long gun in .223 or other.

Not dissing the 40S&W, I’ve got a honking metal frame IWI pistol (CZ clone) which I really like, but I’m tossing out a tad of history to go with the other stuff above. Why not 9mm? The FBI take was the 9mm was “weighed in the balance and found wanting” (by them at the time).
 
Web's BoA incident post; LAPD, 44Minutes...

I totally disagree with Web's post.
The LAPD & the sworn LE's labor union both urged for major changes in the SOPs & training doctrine following the BoA shooting.
Anyone can find that information or watch documented interviews of sworn LAPD officers clearly stating those facts.
The LAPD also purchased a few select fire M16a1 rifles & made use of force policy changes too based on the BoA/North Hollywood event.

ClydeFrog
ps; the title 44 Minutes was the cable TV film based on the incident; www.IMFDb.org . IMFdb.org explains in detail how & what firearms were in the BoA 1997 shooting incident.
 
I totally disagree with Web's post.
The LAPD & the sworn LE's labor union both urged for major changes in the SOPs & training doctrine following the BoA shooting.
Anyone can find that information or watch documented interviews of sworn LAPD officers clearly stating those facts.
The LAPD also purchased a few select fire M16a1 rifles & made use of force policy changes too based on the BoA/North Hollywood event.
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I don't doubt that LAPD used the incident for justification to change weapons, but I do doubt that a .40 or .45 would have significantly changed the outcome of the event. As I stated earlier, neither .40 nor .45 penetrates body armor significantly better than 9mm does so armor-penetration is, IMHO, a rather poor argument for them (that's not to say that there aren't other, better arguments for .40 or .45).
 
The Miami shootout, was as much about bad tactics, as it was ballistics.

The FBI agents only had 3 9mm autos (S&W Model 459), along with the shotguns, and revolvers. None of the FBI agents had .357 Magnum loads; they were all .38 Special +P loads.

The felony stop was not well thought-out, partially due to the pace at which events unfolded, but also part of the inexperience of the FBI agents. Today, police, FBI, etc., would never allow a planned stop to potentially go in favor of the bad guys.

Up close #6 shot will kill you as dead as buckshot.

Matix was, by far, the most deadly armed. The Mini-14, and two additional .357 Magnum revolvers (S&W 586 and a Dan Wesson). The .223 rounds in the close environment was plentry of power for Matix.

Let's not forget one of the first rules of combat - No plan survives initial contact.

It's also a very bitter reminder that two individuals, bound to go out in a blaze of glory, got their wishes; and caused untold grief to the survivors.
 
Most agencies in my neck of the woods opt for .45 or .357sig. I don't know of any agency around me right now that shoots .40 or 9mm. I carry 9mm for off duty, mostly because of a more concealable platform.
 
When ever the Miami shootout is mentioned I want to copy Ayoobs excellent article on the event and post it. The FBI wanted to cover themselves for the poor tactics used by the agents.

The LA bank shooting was once again a failure of training/tactics. The cops continually shot at the torso. They continued this even after they recognized that the perps were wearing body armor. They did this because that is what they were trained to do.

Proper placement of a 9mm. 40, 45 will have the same effect.
 
What the officers involved in the North Hollywood Shootout truly needed was not a larger caliber handgun, but a centerfire rifle.
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Didn't they borrow some rifle's from a near buy gun store?

#29
pendennis
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Seems to make sense.

I think I remember was with the North HW, it was to do a head shot.
 
Just because the military, the LAPD or Euro police chooses a specific
round doesn't necessarily make it the best choice. As for the BoA
shootout, a scoped Thompson Contender in .22 magnum would have
ended the shooting post haste. Again, it's shot placement not caliber.
 
Smith & Wesson; MP40, West Virginia state troopers; .45acp...

I read a few articles & new S&W press releases that many state and local LE agencies are converting to the M&P in .40S&W.
I found it strange too that the WV state troopers decided to upgrade their issue .45acp TSW sidearms rather than switch to a M&P or Glock model.
The federal police of Belgium are also going to a Smith and Wesson M&P pistol in 9x19mm over a FNH sidearm too.
 
The LA rifles from the gun store were never used.

As far as torso shots, head shots in that environment would be difficult. I don't recall any after action reports that said officers were robotically shooting at the torso. Maybe some did try. But snapping a shot at a small moving target under full auto fire is not a guaranteed sure thing.
 
I've been a cop now for 30+ years and I've never fired a Glock, nor a .40 caliber. I went straight from a .357 revolver to a .45.

.40SW? I've never seen the utility.
 
LockedBreech said:
What's your .45 platform?
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Right now, a SW M&P45, although if I had my druthers, I'd be carrying my 1911. I can't get used to the trigger on that agency M&P. It combines creep, grittiness and overtravel, and they won't let me upgrade it. Maybe another couple of hundred rounds and I'll begin to tolerate it. I'm told that M&Ps are fine police pistols. We'll see.
 
Dang, I always have to be reminded by my brother (agency-issued G22 .40) that most departments don't let you change anything. No Apex kit, bummer.
 
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