.40 cal and police.

M

manta49

New member
Reading some posts about police pistols in America. Some officers say they can pick the pistol they carry, but it has to be .40 cal.

Why .40 why are they disregarding 9mm the most tried and tested pistol cal ammo ever use. Used by the vast majority of police and army world wide including the american military, tried and tested in two world wars.

Don't want to start a caliber war just doesn't make sense to me. :confused:
 
My dad was an officer 15-20 years ago, when 9mm was substantially worse than it is now. During ammo testing, they watched the sub-par 9mms of the day fail miserably at barrier penetration. Then they switched to .40, which defeated the same barriers soundly. Similarly, 9 street performance then was not great at the time.

I still prefer the .40, but these days they are much closer than they used to be. 9mm is now a formidable and capable round, especially in top-end JHPs like Speer Gold Dot and Winchester RA9T. However, that initial poor showing of the 9mm created a lasting impression with many officers, hence the modern distaste of police departments for 9mm.
 
Miami shootout led to distrust of the 9mm, which led the FBI to the 10mm. Didn't work out for them in the 1076 platform. SW made the 40 SW as a substitute. Glock figured their 9mm frames could handle it. Thus, the Glock 22 became so popular. SW couldn't match the Glock platform at first.

Some places are going back to modern 9mm rounds in Glocks, M & P, etc.
 
Local law enforcement agencies generally copy whatever the FBI does. When the FBI adopted the 40 S&W so did everyone else. I am not saying that this is a bad thing, it just is reality.
 
Miami

I was thinking Miami too. Plus the 9mm was derided for years by the .45 clan. The .40 satisfies both camps it seems, and certainly is the far and away winner in my area.
 
My agency issues Glock 22's in .40, but we can carry any 9mm or .40 cal Glock we desire if we wish to purchase one. I will tell you that as of the past six months or so, there has been a huge trend on officers I know switching back to 9mm's. I myself am one of them. Caliber wars are ridiculous... Fast hits on target and shot placement are king, and most people do both of those things better with a 9mm. That is my reasoning anyway.
 
The largest dept in this area, just trashed all of their .40 cals for 9mm's, saying the most recent testing showed they performed at least as well, plus with less recoil helped accuracy, and were less expensive in the long run, while being able to carry more bullets.

They all have 9mm's now.
 
I'm not particularly familiar with the practices of European police so I cannot really compare the reasoning between them and American police. I can however tell you that while American police do typically have a shotgun and/or rifle in their vehicle, they do not commonly carry a long arm on their person. Because of this, an American cop's handgun must be useful not only as a defensive weapon, but also as an offensive one because, in many cases, the handgun may be the only weapon that he or she has available.

Penetration through intermediate barriers is also a large concern. One of the most dangerous activities that an American cop must routinely engage in is a traffic stop (they are walking up to the window of a complete stranger and do not know what he/she is capable of or what weapons he/she might have). Because of this, the performance of a bullet after it has penetrated sheet steel or sloped auto glass is very important.

.40 S&W forms a good middle ground between 9mm and .45 ACP. It penetrates sheet steel a good bit better than .45 ACP does due to smaller diameter and higher velocity but does not have it's trajectory altered by sloped auto glass as easily as 9mm does due to heavier bullet weight and more momentum. .40 S&W is also available in smaller, lighter guns with smaller grips than larger cartridges like .45 ACP and 10mm Auto which makes it more accommodating to officers with smaller hands.

Remember too, guns, cartridges, and ammunition are not uniform from department to department. While .40 S&W is the most popular choice for American police, 9mm is a reasonably close second with .45 ACP, .357 Sig, and .38 Special probably rounding out the top five.
 
Different calibers will have different strengths and weaknesses...there's no "war" in my opinion...just people voicing their opinions on what suits their needs. I love reading these...let the discussions continue!! The more info, the better!!

I went with a .40 for my first handgun last year. I bought mine for self-defense...and I wanted that first shot to count...I dread having to send out multiple bullets, but I will if I have to.

One thing that struck me was this ex-cop, now-mortitian who does over 8 autopsies per day, year round. He says that if the dead BG has one bullet in him, it's probably a .40 or .45 (the .45 had the edge). If there's multiple bullets in him, it's probably a 9mm or .38.

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal Ballistics as viewed in a morgue.htm

Again, I don't view this as a caliber war. Personally, I want the best first shot capability. For me, for personal defense in my situation, I got a full-sized all-steel, a whopping 2.4 lbs., .40 cal semi (a CZ SP-01 Tactical). It shoots like a 9mm...very little recoil due to the weight. My second choice would be a Springfield XDm in .45 with their double stacked mags - 14 rounds of .45.

I've never been a police officer. Just speculating...if I were, I'd probably go with something lighter if I had to carry all day. I have no idea! And since I'm so new to guns, I might totally change my mind this year!

Anyway, I was thinking with all the meth freaks, etc. out there, I want a big first shot. The .40 generally has more kinetic energy than either the 9mm or .45. Every shot has it's risks...I'd rather have a bigger first-shot, and then rely on a really heavy gun to make any subsequent shots feel like 9mm shots. THis way I have the best of both worlds. I just don't have to carry a heavy gun all day, so I'm fine with a very heavy .40!
 
It's a nice middle. Everyone like to have their cake and eat it, too.

Little bigger and more powerful than 9mm. Little more capacity than the .45


My SW M&P .40 is what I would choose if I was on the job.
 
.40 S&W AND pOLICE

Idealyest the 45 ACP is the best police weapon but, most people [hands and recoil] can not handle it. Since 1990 the .40 S&W is the closest "they" have come up with.
 
9mm

Germans lost 2 world wars using 9mm. The U.S. switched to 9mm to "please"our worthless allies. So "we could all use the same stuff".:rolleyes:
 
sam colt said:
Germans lost 2 world wars using 9mm. The U.S. switched to 9mm to "please"our worthless allies. So "we could all use the same stuff".:rolleyes:
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Yes. Germany lost WW1 and WW2 because of 9mm. Not the relentless American manufacturing ability or the inexhaustible pool of Russian infantry, or the tactical brilliance of certain Allied commanders, or the small geographical area of Germany, etc etc etc

For Pete's sake, dislike the 9mm all you want, I prefer the .45 myself, but there were legitimate tactical reasons for the 9mm, the two biggest being NATO ammo interchangeability and low weight of carry.
 
The agency I serve with went from the 9mm to the .45, leaving both the 9mm and the .40 out of the equation. The catalyst for this was an OIS in which the 9mm didn't perform up to their expectations. Personally, if I must carry an auto, I want it to be a .45, but I'm not thrilled with the platform we're using: The Sig P220ST. That, however, is for other threads....
 
My agency will issue a Glock forty, but we have a great alternate weapon policy. Our uniformed guys must use either a .45ACP or 40SW. Plain clothes may go as small as 9mm.

I qualified with the 9, 40, and 45 with my XDs, but every morning as I dress for work, it's one of my 40s (either the XDsc or XDMc) that I put on. I'm not at all uncomfortable with any of them.

Each of the three calibers is as good as the next with quality ammo. We are mandated the GoldDot.
 
Madison: From all of the ballistics reports I've seen, the .45 has less kinetic energy than the .40S&W. Recoil is the "equal but opposite" force from the kinetic energy. The .45 is a low-pressure round, the .40 is a high-pressure round. My CHL instructor said his .45 has a lot less muzzle flip than the .40 cal. pistols.

Sam Colt: Yes, but the Geneva convention required FMJ ("ball") ammo...those war stories were about ball ammo. That wasn't the deadly hollow-point ammo we have today. 9mm in hollow point is much more lethal.
 
44min; BoA shooting: 1997; .40S&W 9x19mm...

Many gun owners & armed professionals discuss the Platt-Matix incident(1986, Florida) but the 1997 Bank of America LAPD incident was significant too.
The LAPD later changed the SOPs and allowed patrol cops & detectives to pack .45acp S&W duty pistols and the Beretta 96 series .40S&W.
I agree that the older 9x19mm rounds(prior to 1998 or so) were less effective but newer bullet designs and improved engineering as made the 9x19mm/9mm +P a much better pick.
The .40S&W is sweeping across the US for law enforcement & protective services because it offers a great mix of vel & high KE.
The size allows for a pistol to be compact but still hold 12-16 duty rounds too.
I'm not knocking the 10mm, .357sig or the older, larger .45acp but I can understand why PDs or LE units would select a .40S&W as a sidearm.
Clyde

ps: FWIW, I'd carry a .357sig if it were my personal choice for a duty pistol.
 
Why .40 why are they disregarding 9mm the most tried and tested pistol cal ammo ever use. Used by the vast majority of police and army world wide including the american military, tried and tested in two world wars.
Click to expand...

I see your point.

Don't want to start a caliber war just doesn't make sense to me.
Click to expand...

No replacement for displacement, it's the American way.

We have bigger car's with bigger engines, and bigger people (Fat joke).

Why is this? Because we can!:D

TBS, most of my semi's are 9mm, including my 1911. No 40s, don't need them.
 
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