4 Point or Better Rule

I think most hunters wouldnt have a problem with it if the deer population was high and you had a good chance of seeing a doe to shoot but the population may not be high everywhere so alot of hunters may not see a doe to shoot so they end up not tagging a deer at all and when your hunting for meat first rather than a trophy to begin with then antler point restrictions do hurt.
if you continually push the harvest of does the population can decline even in areas that does are abundant now and maybe has been for years it could easily change with an increase in local hunting pressure and when that happens you will likely be thinking about the downsides of the point restrictions more closely.
 
They tried a 3 point or better in a few areas here in Utah for a number of years.
It hurt the quality more than it helped.
Years have passed now since they lifted the restrictions and you can still see many, many 24" and bigger 2 points.
The genes were allowed to stay when in a natural herd they probaly would have been bred out.
Idaho has a few units that are 4 point or better and they "harvest" almost as many 2 and 3 points, only they get left to rot.
I think a better solution is to limit buck tags and increase the doe harvest.
Habitat management and improvement would probably have more effect than antler restrictions.
When every ridge and every draw has a road or ATV trail it gives them no safe zone to escape to, temporary road closures during hunts work, have seen the results.
I am not an advocate for closing public grounds or making every hunt a draw, but both work when employed judiciously.
Sometimes I think the best thing for the health of the herds and qaulity of the animals is a complete closure for 1 to 3 years depending on conditions.
 
I like the way they do it down in Georgia.

First, Georgia is the largest state in land area east of the Mississippi. It also has the largest deer herd east of the Big Muddy, and the second longest deer season (South Carolina has the longest).

In Georgia, they have what is called "Quality Deer Management". QDM applies only to certain counties. I believe the first county to implement QDM was Dooley County (Vienna). It took about 5 years for the harvest levels of bucks to come back up to the pre-QDM years.

Done properly, QDM requires an aggressive doe harvest. In order for older bucks to exist in greater numbers, the carrying load of the land changes. Habitat quality becomes important as well.

The thing I like best about QDM in Georgia, is that in the counties in which it is implemented, it weeds out the casual hunters and the rate (as opposed to raw numbers) of hunting accidents fall. However, I do not believe that an entire state, especially one the size of Wyoming, needs to be QDM. That's just laziness on the part of the Dept of Natural Resources.

The two largest deer I have taken east of the Mississippi were in Meriwether County, Georgia, a QDM county. One even had a small 8 point rack, but he was one big bodied monster. I estimate he was about 2.5 years old.
 
I am slow to reply tonight, I screwed up the computer and the wife had to fix it. She was NOT impressed with me!

I took it for granted about gene pool I guess, but you do have to have the right genes in the breeding and not all places have those genes. In this area we do have a good gene pool. They just dont get the chance. I do agree with Kraigwy that if there was a 4 point rule that they should give a doe/fawn tag.

Elkman....
So as far as results here, on the third year there was a lot of 4 and 5 point and bigger. there is also some HUGE 2 and 3 points which may or may not get bigger. I've watched them over time, I would say they some wouldn't after 3 years. But the majority do get nice.

I also agree that they could give a break to kids under 16. Let them shoot what they want. I dont think it would really be any harder to police than anything else.

The area next to us is really out standing. Your odds of drawing a tag are as good as getting hit by lightning or winning the lottery. Hardly any hunters on it and only a few tags, but garanteed the best hunting around, bar-none. Huge and I mean HUGE elk, Whitetail and Mulies. You can't hunt bucks on the ranch anymore (cow elk only) but there is BLM and Forest around it. This area borders that one and as this is a general area.... we like the 4 point rule.

Anyway, I just wanted to check in again and I really enjoy reading all the posts. Thank you.

FALPhil.....how do you determine if its an aggressive doe???HAHA
 
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Our group has a "10 point or better" rule.....we all trophy hunt and have garages full of smaller racks. Only way to get bigger bucks is to let them mature and get a few more years of growth. It is paying off...got a 14 pointer earlier this season.
 
# on one side?

Okay so a question on the "# on one side rule".
Whatever the state of number used, does it only apply to that one side or is it a mirror image for the other side too?
Example, if its a 4 point on one side rule, does that mean it needs to be at least a 8 pointer? Or as long as its at least 4 on one side then it can be 3, 2, or 1 on the other?

thanks
Alex
 
;)
does that mean it needs to be at least a 8 pointer?
Click to expand...

YES
elkman06

OKay, I read it a little better. You might get away w/ a 4x3..again might be up to the individual wardens' interpretation.
 
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Colorado has a 4 pt rule on elk in some areas,which,to me makes sense.
The Game Management Units are prtty much about the range of a particular herd,and are a tool to manage that herd.

The DOW asked for input many years ago,and I participated.

They must consider,there are locals who want a low $ hunt for the freezer.

There are outfitters and sporting goods stores and hotels and restauants concerned about their way of life(Big game hunting revenue in Colo is greater than ski revenue)

There is the "once in a lifetime elk hunter" who wants a big bull,but more,he wants a wild country experience,and seeing 300 other hunters a day isn't it
Or a dad and a 16 year old daughter or son want a safe,local trip that they can do.

Then,the herds must be managed for health.The range and forage must be managed.

Add to that,ranchers and grazing leases and moving cattle herds in the fall.

The DOW has a balance to find.

In Colo,they manage different GMUs with different priorities,and its not bad.

There are local,easy,hunts,but lower your exectations.There are remote big bull hunts,get your wallet out.Its about as fair as it can be,IMO
 
In Utah the number of points is only for one side, the other can be more or less. I believe Idaho is the same, nott sure about Wyoming.
For instance in a "Spike Only" elk unit you can shoot a bull with atleast one side a spike, the other can be no antler, or a six point, as long as one side meets the criteria you're good.
 
Will read the entire thread to see if I am duplicating another's opinion...

I am 100% against anything but a "nubbin" or 4 inch spike rule to determine sex...

The 4 point or better rule is nuttin' more than a "feel good" sort of rule.

A 10 year old 180 pounder could have 3 on each side and be a "brood buck" but he needs removed from the gene pool. A 4X4 2.5 year old is not yet a brrod buck but should be let walk a few years to see if he ain't a 6X6 in waiting...
If a state wants to restrict bucks, they need to train hunters to cull the junk as well as hunt the bruisers.

Antler restrictions are not really near as good as teaching to closely judge age while lookin' at junk or trophy wood. The season needs to plan for both the trophy hunter as well as the meat gatherer.
Brent
 
Most of use love to harvest trophy deer...especially out west where the Mulies can reach the statis of Montster Buck....But

This Regulation poses a HUGE THREAT to our trophy deer!! A three point buck has 3 points in his genes and will never be a 4 point ....deer do not grow more tines as they mature. There are a few exceptions but this is almost always the case.!! They grow mass, size and length, but do not add tines after 3 1/2. and usally their 2nd set of antlers is what their tine count will always be.

This is important to prevent, remove and stop this regulation... Sure the little 1 1/2year old spikes and 2points will mature as there first set of antlers is not the end of their story...but at 2 1/2-3 1/2 you will know if they have potental or not. All managed hunting facilities know that this is the time to remove the dinks..3 and 4 point bucks to allow the 5's to do the breeding. Ever heard the term "Management Buck"?
If you are after meat you need to be shooting dry does anyway and not these bambi 1 1/2 year old bucks...the does will be way bigger anyway.

Outdoor life did a research article on this years ago with deer who were followed and their sheds collected and cataloged...the results Once a Dink Buck Always a Dink Buck!!)

The 4point regs kills off all/most of the 2 1/2 year old 4 points (that are not even close to mature yet) and lets all the bad "Dink" Gened 3 points and two points live on to do the breeding..

This is a very sure way to remove the trophy from the woods.
 
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Seems to me that the health of the herd, the health of the species is more important than the satisfaction of the hunter--for all that I've always been an avid hunter.

A lot of the impetus for shooting bucks and not shooting does is a holdover from those years when the deer herds had declined in dramatic fashion all over the country. Shooting a doe was spending capital; shooting a buck was spending the interest returned from the capital. Hunters as a group created the game laws and the resurgence of deer populations is history.

There is a natural weeding-out process among bucks which eventually leads to the best genetics for survival being passed along in breeding. Shooting young bucks can cut off some of the better bloodlines from full maturity. That's part of the reasoning for restrictions against shooting the younger bucks.

Older, bigger-horned deer have already passed their genes into the pool, and taking them as a hunter's satisfaction for a bragging trophy doesn't hurt the overal health of the herd.

Given the population dynamics of deer, does must be shot for the good of the habitat. Else, the carrying capacity of the land is exceeded and the average size of all deer becomes smaller.

As far as today's regulations? Today's society is heavily urbanized, and the average hunter may not be conversant with all the various aspects of wildlife population dynamics. The agency people must accommodate both the hunters' capabilities and desires, and the biological realities--and those can easily be in opposition.
 
Sure the little 1 1/2year old spikes and 2points will mature as there first set of antlers is not the end of their story...but at 2 1/2-3 1/2 you will know if they have potental or not
Click to expand...


I think that is the problem in this area. I saw four bucks yesterday afternoon. One spike, one little six, one little eight, and a pretty good deer that was too smart to let me get a real good look at him. The six and eight were almost certainly 1 1/2 years old. At that point you dont' know what they might be in another year or two. A lot of, if not most, hunters would have shot these little bucks. The vast majority of bucks are killed before they are two years old.

Some of the guys I used to hunt with when asked not to kill young bucks said, by god if it had hair on it they were going to shoot it. I talked to one of the guys about 10 years later and asked him how the hunting was. He said you couldn't find a good buck over there because everybody was shooting them before they got grown. LOL
 
will its all about size !!! if that 2-4 pointer is bigger then that ten pointer, I'll take him. does are running crazy here and theres not rack rule here. :D
 
I'd love it here in Michigan. Too many hunters (IMO) kill small bucks to "put meat on the table", "because the next guy will shoot it, so I should", "insert excuse here". If we want to see bigger bucks (I do and this is one of the reasons for my post), we need to stop killing them before they grow up. A doe will put meat on the table just as well as a spike or forkhorn. Add a OBR (off topic a little) and I think MI would become a premier hunting state. An old school mentality exists in this state. Sound scientific game management would improve hunting IMO. I have personally shot only 1 buck in the last 5 or so years and will harvest a doe (or does) if I don't get a 8 or better.

Andy

PS. I support an adequate doe harvest as well. Sorry for off topic comments.
 
Flap, The problem with the fact that does fill a freezer is that most states have such a limited doe season. If they had an allowance for more doe days, I would gladly utilize them.
Brent
 
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