4+1... Enough?

Is 4+1 shots enough for Law Enforcement use?

  • No, it is not enough for a police shotgun

    Votes: 14 32.6%

  • Yes, it is enough for a police shotgun

    Votes: 18 41.9%

  • No, but it is enough for home defense

    Votes: 11 25.6%
  • Total voters
    43
  • Poll closed .
M

Model12Win

Moderator
Hey guys!

I noticed an interesting thing on Remington's Law Enforcement website:

http://www.remingtonle.com/shotguns/870standard.htm

They still offer their 870 Police model with a 4-shot magazine tube. But, they also have ones with 2 and 3 shot extensions. I am wondering why any department would choose to go with the 4-shot magazine tube? What is interesting is that in the recent body cam video of the police shooting in Fresno, CA, one of the officers has what appears to be one of these 4-shot 870 Police models and uses it to shoot the suspect. (PS: let's NOT make this thread about that shooting, let's focus on the equipment ONLY).

So it seems strange to me that any cops would still be using shotguns with just 4+1 capacity in 2016, but apparently some are and Remington still sells it as an option. That just doesn't seem like much firepower to me. That should work fine for hunting and maybe even less lethal (with lethal backup of course) but not for use with lethal loads or for home defense either.

So what do you think about this? Is 4+1 enough capacity for the police shotgun? Thanks!
 
The Colorado State Patrol uses 4 shot 870's to this day. Speed feed stocks allow extra ammo to be on board the gun.

Pump and stuff is the training norm
 
I've had extensions on shotguns increasing capacity beyond 4+1. The negatives outweighed the positives. I took them off and would recommend 4+1 as the better option.
 
I voted for choice number 3.
Different strokes for different folks.
While no one would ever complain about having too much ammo in their weapons, the more the original design is changed, the more possibility for malfunctions.
But it very much depends on the quality of mag extension, too.
Either way, sooner or later, the magazine will tend to be empty, so lots of reloading practice is a good idea.
Better than merely depending on equipment advantages.
 
Remington must have changed the 870. Mine(early 80's vintage Wingmaster with a Choate extension for dealing with rioting bowling pins and plates.) holds 5 in the tube. Not that it matters.
Five rounds in the gun is more than enough for most situations. The average cop isn't getting in many fire fights despite what you see on TV.
"...wondering why any department would choose to..." Money. Same as everything else.
 
I am wondering why any department would choose to go with the 4-shot magazine tube?
Click to expand...
Because they typically have short 18-21" barrels and anything longer would extend beyond the muzzle.
 
wait a minute

Not quite true regards 18-20" bbls and mag extensions. A standard mag tube on an 870 holds 4 rounds and ends well short of the muzzle of a 18 or 20" gun. Mag extensions are available to take the end of the mag tube on out to the end of the barrel, then stop. My math may not be quite right here, but I believe an 18" gun can take a +3 extension, and a 20" gun can take a +4. Essentially you are nearly doubling the, mag capacity of the gun, without the mag tube extending past the muzzle.

When extensions finally became approved for duty use w/ my agency, we were quick to install Remington factory extended tubes. Patrol carbines were not common at that time, and upgrading the shotgun was our best course. We had some reliability issues, which were largely solved with better followers and quality tube springs. The tactical followers with the long stem deny you one round in the magazine, but stack the spring better, and are usually considered a reliability enhancer.

Another issue that surfaced was weight. Adding the extension assembly, and 3-4 rounds added to the weight of the shotgun, and we had female officers that were already struggling with managing the weapon. Pitiful but true. For those folks, we did not usually add the extended tube. I also had the buttstocks cut a bit shorter and had quality recoil pads added. More stringent physical fitness requirements have largely solved that issue prior my retirement.
 
^^^
Especially with the usual reluctance to practice with a 12 gauge shotgun.
For most folks, it's no fun at all.
The AR is far more agreeable in that regard alone.
 
Police depts in my area...quit carrying shotguns in vehicles about 3 years ago.

AR's are carried in all police cruisers now...in my area...city and county...

Shotguns are good for all kinds of things...but for Defense, in my opinion, not your best option by far ...
 
It appears the poll is neck and neck... people are rather divided on weather 4+1 is enough capacity in a police shotgun.

I know relatively few LEO's still carry shotguns, but I'd love to hear what your department issues if you are an LEO yourself.
 
second post

That seems a topic for another post, and I recommend we start one down that line, otherwise, we may stray widely from the mag capacity question.
 
Nice to hear, Jerry.

I think for me guys... I think for me, well... I'll just come out and say it.

I don't think it's enough, and I'd prefer at least 6+1. My M590A1 has 8+1 and I'll be the first to admit it's rather nose heavy when loaded. I think about a 6-7 shot tube is ideal. But, I'd sure rather have my Mossberg 8-shot in hand over a standard 4-shot 870 Police if I ever needed one for defense, maneuverability be damned. This isn't dove hunting! :eek:

That being said, there is something I just am drawn to about the short-magazine Remingtons. They look very sharp.
 
shotguns

As noted by somebody else, there is a cost issue that is very real for many agencies. Our local rural SO still has the shotgun as the primary long gun for its "dirt road deputies" though carbines are coming on, often as a private purchase,then agency approved. THEN, you have to get the officer certified on the carbine, buy ammo (often privately purchased) and get the officer qualified. That will take an instructor so qualified, or the officer must attend a course himself. THEN, the patrol rig either needs a rack or the carbine goes in the trunk (you just hold up on your violence 'till I get my real gun!), obviously not the best answer.

There are avenues to obtain carbines affordably, and were I still in patrol and working for an outfit that did not have them for rank and file, and had to jump through hoops to get one, including private purchase, I would do so.....but not all officers are so motivated, nor administration adept at locating funds and working budgets.
 
Not quite true regards 18-20" bbls and mag extensions. A standard mag tube on an 870 holds 4 rounds and ends well short of the muzzle of a 18 or 20" gun. Mag extensions are available to take the end of the mag tube on out to the end of the barrel, then stop. My math may not be quite right here, but I believe an 18" gun can take a +3 extension, and a 20" gun can take a +4. Essentially you are nearly doubling the, mag capacity of the gun, without the mag tube extending past the muzzle.
Click to expand...

Your math is quite correct. I have a 3 shot extension on my 870 with 18" barrel and its shorter than the barrel.



I've had mine pushing 30 years now. Never any issue of any kind. Granted I don't shoot it very often like I did in my youth.
 
A standard mag tube on an 870 holds 4 rounds...
Click to expand...

I have a couple questions about this...

admittedly I am not big into shotguns, and combat shotguns as a specific, but I am wondering, #1) we are talking about standard 2 3/4" shells, right?

#2) does anyone know when the 4 round tube became the "standard"?, or if it is only the standard on combat/riot style guns???

The 870 Express I bought in the 80s has a 5 shot tube (26' barrel)
All the Wingmasters I know of (from the 50s up) all have 5 shot tubes (when not plugged)

The 5 shot magazine of the 870 was one of the reasons I always preferred the Winchester Model 12, because its tube holds 6!!!

so, when did this 4 shot thing come about??
 
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