38sp load help needed

3

308Loader

New member
38sp load help needed

I have been trying to load for my RI M200 without much succuss in regards to velocity deviation. FPS is all over the place with in a given charge range. Components are Berry’s 125gr FP, Fed #100 SPP, Win 231 powder (tested 3.8->4.8) brass mixed. First load test brass was my once fired blazer brass only, second round of testing was mixed headstamp range pickups. RCBS die set 38/357, sized and trimmed all. First test was RCBS roll crimp, second was LEE taper crimp die. COL was 1445 on all. First testing loads were dispensed and measured from Hornady lock and load auto charge, second round of testing was Lee dipper, Lyman scale, and trickled to exact weight. All shot over chronograph at 10-15 feet, similar weather conditions 30-35F. Verified chronograph wasn’t the issue by shooting some Win white box and Blazer 125’s over it before beginning handload tests. Box ammo shoots were consistent enough 50FPS spread. Hand loads not so much. Out of each batch in the low charge weight I had one that was about 281Fps, max recorded was 745fps, average around 560.4285fps (tossing out the 281fps shot, 14 shot ave). higher charge weights did better but not as good as box ammo. For fun I checked out a 12 round test of 125gr Hornady XTP roll crimp at CL with 4.8gr of 231. Similar results as Berry’s as far as FPS spread, recorded higher top speeds but not as consistent as box ammo.

Suspect #1 – Crimp. Not sure where I’m going wrong here. Roll crimp looked good, could see mouth edge curl into / toward bullet. Taper crimp took out all of the bell of the case, no bulge where the bullet is. Is there a standard way to measure this?

Suspect #2 – primer, poor ignition. Think I can rule this out. Same primer lot does fine in 9mm and 45acp. Might be wrong. I do have some CCI SPP that I can sub on the next testing.

Suspect #3 – powder. Again same can of powder and same lot of primer is doing fine with 9mm and 45acp.

Suspect #4 – chronograph or gun… think the box ammo test covered this as a non issue, could be wrong.

As always I look forward to your input and thanks in advance.
 
I assume you must be using 45 Auto brass with small primer pockets.

The one thing that is really different about the 38 Special from the auto pistol cartridges you mentioned is the long case can make light charges position sensitive. Whether the powder is over the flash hole or way up front behind the bullet can affect the rate of ignition and if you get a slow ignition the case may open and start leaking gas before the bullet really starts moving. Cold makes this worse.

Did you get smokey or sooty cases with the low-velocity rounds? That would be a strong indicator of very low peak pressure.

Try carefully raising the muzzle to get the powder back over the flash hole, then lowering it very slowly onto the sky screen POA and see if that improves velocity consistency. If it does, you can use a tuft of Dacron pillow ticking to hold the charge back over the flash hole or you can go to a bulkier powder like Trail Boss or N32C to see if you don't get better behavior.

You can also try magnum primers, which sometimes help with the powder position situation and when there is a lot of empty space in the case to pressurize and also with cooler weather.

Do be sure your primers are seated firmly.

Very low or high readings can be due to powder residue tripping the start screen or the stop screen too early, respectively, so stick with your 15-foot spacing if the readings are suspect. Keep in mind a lot of consumer electronics are only rated to 32°F (0°C) and can get erratic in the cold. Using the Energizer lithium batteries can help, as they hold voltage up and supply current better than either alkaline or carbon-zinc batteries do in cold conditions.
 
4.8g of 231 is a touch on the light side for 125s. Hornady shows a start of 4.8 and max of 5.7 with the 125g xtp. 38spl is already a low pressure cartridge and that's a light bullet. I'd guess ignition problems, poor combustion of powder.

Did the 281s or low shots sound of feel weird. Unless nick already covered smokey or sooty case mouths.

The lows could be a chronograph issue as well. I have had problems with passing cloud cover, and trying to test too early or late in the day and getting funny readings. One day I started and every worked right. Then I start getting errors. Sun was coming through the trees going down. Still good light just inconsistent. And as unklenick said, keep your batteries fresh, could be unburnt powder if the chronograph was too close.
 
He's shooting Berry's plated bullets, so he is using the lead bullet data on Hodgdon, I think. Interesting that Hornady runs that high. Hodgdon also has data on the XTP and says 4.9 grains max. 5.3 grains for +P. Hodgdon uses a longer, 7.7-inch barrel, but the velocities Hodgdon claims are higher even allowing for that barrel length. But his velocities are more in agreement with Hornady's (a little lower for the 4" gun) so Hornady's numbers may be more appropriate for it.

308Loader,

Try creeping up on the load toward Hornady's maximum (5.4 grains for standard pressure and 5.7 for +P. Watch out for sticky extraction of the cases. If you get that pressure sign, back the charge off 5% without shooting any more of the sticky load. Without slugging your chambers and bore and checking the size of your barrel/cylinder gap with feeler gauges, that is about all I can advise.
 
38spl load

Perhaps too much empty cartridge space with your load?

Have you considered a filler over the powder charge like COW?

Consider a heavier bullet like a 140 cast lead from Missouri Bullets. They can be had with a coating of Hi-Tek.

Good luck.
 
Unclenick said:
He's shooting Berry's plated bullets, so he is using the lead bullet data on Hodgdon, I think. Interesting that Hornady runs that high. Hodgdon also has data on the XTP and says 4.9 grains max. 5.3 grains for +P. Hodgdon uses a longer, 7.7-inch barrel, but the velocities Hodgdon claims are higher even allowing for that barrel length. But his velocities are more in agreement with Hornady's (a little lower for the 4" gun) so Hornady's numbers may be more appropriate for it.

308Loader,

Try creeping up on the load toward Hornady's maximum (5.4 grains for standard pressure and 5.7 for +P. Watch out for sticky extraction of the cases. If you get that pressure sign, back the charge off 5% without shooting any more of the sticky load. Without slugging your chambers and bore and checking the size of your barrel/cylinder gap with feeler gauges, that is about all I can advise.
Click to expand...
in my experience I load plated bullets with jacketed data. The only restriction I have run into with plated bullets is max velocity, which berrys lists as 1250.

Per Hornady with w231 a max charge of 5.7g only produces 950fps with a 4in barrel, well within the limit.
 
ammo.crafter said:
Perhaps too much empty cartridge space with your load?

Have you considered a filler over the powder charge like COW?

Consider a heavier bullet like a 140 cast lead from Missouri Bullets. They can be had with a coating of Hi-Tek.

Good luck.
Click to expand...
if I remember correctly the OP bought the 125s because that was all that could be found at the time, so gotta figure out a load to use them.
 
Nick you are correct with charge weight. Trying to play it safe with lead bullet data charges on the low end of the spectrum working up to jacketed. Trying to avoid +P pressures in this pistol. Test one gave me 788FPS to 862FPS @4.8gr test 2 with TC got me to 900+ but not consistent, didn’t write them down, my bad in hindsight. shadow you are also correct, all I could find for first testing. have shot 125XTP @ 3.8.

Where do we cross the line from standard load to +p or +p+ ? Box ammo seems to be 850 FPS. Trying to dial that in for this bullet weight.
 
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308Loader said:
Nick you are correct with charge weight. Trying to play it safe with lead bullet data charges on the low end of the spectrum working up to jacketed. Trying to avoid +P pressures in this pistol. Test one gave me 788FPS to 862FPS @4.8gr test 2 with TC got me to 900+ but not consistent, didn’t write them down, my bad in hindsight.

Where do we cross the line from standard load to +p or +p+ ? Box ammo seems to be 850 FPS. Trying to dial that in for this bullet weight.
Click to expand...

UnkleNick
Try creeping up on the load toward Hornady's maximum (5.4 grains for standard pressure and 5.7 for +P. Watch out for sticky extraction of the cases. If you get that pressure sign, back the charge off 5% without shooting any more of the sticky load.
Click to expand...

I would agree with that. I would push up to 5.4-5.5 .

I run 4.4g under 158s....

win white box and blazer are what I would considered to be decent plinking ammo. But there is no telling what their criteria was in loading it. they may have had an intended velocity, or been trying to save money and loaded a little light to save while giving a serviceable load. no telling what powder they used. so i would not worry about meeting their velocities too much. I launch 158s in the 800-900fps range with standard pressure loads. 125s should be going faster IMHO.
 
Lyman says 5.1 W231 max, 5.4 +P with either 125 gr JHP or 120 gr cast.
Be careful, I stuck a bullet with too light a load of W231 and too long OAL with a 124 gr bullet. The primer flash did not reach the powder.
 
Yes. I think this will turn out to be a powder position issue. There is a reason Bullseye and Universal and Unique are liked in this sort of application. The flat flakes light right up where a spherical powder's deterrent coatings are less enthusiastic about starting to burn.
 
I’ve shot tons of the Xtreme version of this bullet over 5.1gr of HP38 and have had no issues whatsoever. I haven’t crono’d it but in my model 67 it feels like it’s just a little stouter than a standard load so possibly just into the +P territory. No signs of excessive pressure on either the primers or during extraction, and no soot on shell cases. I consider it to feel like just enough power but still very easy to shoot with excellent accuracy.
 
"Light charge and 35 degrees might have something to do with it."

I'm inclined to go along with the above statement. I run a 125 gr. cast bullets in the .38 Spl. and it's been a decent load regardless of the temperature. Load is 5.0 gr. W231 and the Lyman #356402, a plain based truncated cone shaped bullet. Primer is Winchester standard, not magnum.
Paul B.
 
How are you measuring your powder charge?

In my experience, 231 doesn’t care if you point at the ground and raise to fire or point at the sky and lower to fire, a sure way to test for dependence of powder position.

Have you measured the weight of your bullets? What is the variation in 20 bullets? I have never had good luck getting Berrys to shoot at target accuracy but I do use them for plinking loads. Since I bought em, may as well shoot them up.
 
Pete, charges were dispensed and weighed in 2 ways. Test one was Hornady auto charge. To be sure that wasn't the problem test 2 was lee dipper and Lyman digital scale trickled up to weight. Both methods have done well for me in the past.

Going to ditch the 3.8 charge with this powder. Too slow and inconsistent to be useful anyway. From what I'm reading here 4.8 to 5.1 seems to be the goldilocks zone for this bullet weight and powder. Guess I should focus more in that zone for the next go around. Generally speaking, pressure is related to velocity, I know there are variables, but... At approximately what velocity with this setup do I cross the line into +p?
 
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Your measuring techniques sound good .
The 125 gr. bullet doesn't get enough pressure built up for a clean / consistent burn .
Increase your charge to 5.0 grs. and see if that pressure gets a good burn with consistent results . I believe you are simply trying to load the 231 too light .

Powders have a pressure that must be reached for them to burn cleanly .
Bullseye is a low pressure burner . The 38 special case is a holdover from black powder days and is in truth larger than it needs to be .

For what you are doing , lighter loads with 125 gr. bullets ...the magic powder is Bullseye , although 700X , and Red Dot would also do OK .
It's a shame powder is so hard to find!
Gary
 
going through my manuals I find a few odd over laps

2008 lee 125g standard pressure
jacketed
start 3.8, max 4.8
lead
start 3.8, max 3.8
XTP
start 4.3, max 4.9

2008 lee 125g +p
jacketed
start 4.8, max 5.3
125g xtp
start 4.7, max 5.3 (so starting 0.2 below max for standard pressure)

2021 lee 125g standard pressure
lead
start 3.8, max 4.8

2008 lee 125g +p
125g xtp
start 4.7, max 5.3

my speer manual had no data

Sierra standard pressure 125g
jhp
start 5.1, max 6.3

Sierra +p 125g
jhp
start 5.4, max 6.8

Hodgdon standard pressure 125g
cast
start 3.8, max 4.8
xtp
start 4.3, max 4.9

Hodgdon +p 125g
XTP
Start NA, max 5.3

CAUTION: The following post (or a page linked to) includes or discusses loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested data for this cartridge (QuickLOAD or Gordon's Reloading Tool data is not professionally tested). USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.

I ran some data in gordons reloading tool.

using the 125g berrys plated target hollow point at berry's COL 1.580
for standard pressure loads Max is right around 6.2g at around 982fps

I also ran it with the hornady xtp at their recommended 1.450
max of around 5.3g to stay within standard pressure. at about 973fps

gonna be honest, digging through my manuals, W231/HP38 might just be too slow of a powder to play nice with the 125s in that big case. I would looks for something a bit faster and save the HP-38 for the heavier bullets, like 158s.
 
308Loader said:
Going to ditch the 3.8 charge with this powder. Too slow and inconsistent to be useful anyway. From what I'm reading here 4.8 to 5.1 seems to be the goldilocks zone for this bullet weight and powder. At approximately what velocity with this setup do I cross the line into +p?
Click to expand...

Yeah, just increase the charge. According to Lyman, with a 125 XTP at 1.470" OAL, their max is 5.1 at 820 fps and 15,600 CUP (17,000 CUP Max limit). They show at load at 5.4 gr 231 as their +P for 18,300 CUP.
 
Shadow9mm said:
gonna be honest, digging through my manuals, W231/HP38 might just be too slow of a powder to play nice with the 125s in that big case. I would looks for something a bit faster and save the HP-38 for the heavier bullets, like 158s.
Click to expand...

231 is fine, as are slower powders.
 
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