380 stopping power? Multiple shot considerations?

C

CoffeeGuns

Inactive
I've seen all sorts of arguments about whether the 380 is an adequate self defense round compared to 9mm or higher.

What I haven't seen is discussions that assume multiple shots with a 380.

I think it's safe to assume in a self defense situation, it'll be a close encounter, and so it's reasonable to assume that if you wanted, you could get off multiple shots with a high probability of all hitting the target without that much skill - we're not talking about long distance skill here.

So what if you assume that your training with a 380 is to always shoot 2-3 shots at the target? What is the stopping power then? Are multiple shots a good habit to get into for self defense?

I just wonder if the difference between, for example, 380 vs. 9mm no longer applies if you assume multiple shots with the 380.
 
It wouldn't matter if I was carrying a .380, or a .44mag snubbie. I would put no less than 2 shots on target. But, that was how I was trained.
 
Are multiple shots a good habit to get into for self defense?
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One of my favorite Clint Smith quotes is "in a fight you will continue to shoot the gun until the threat goes away or until the gun is empty."
 
From my training POV it has never been one shot. As a LEO Instructor and a military instructor I have never seen one shot instruction (outside of a sniper :)).

A standard close quarters shooting string is two to the body and one to the head. At ranges beyond instinctive level shooting it is usually two shot strings.

The reason for this is two shots, evaluate (quickly) and re-engage, disengage or other. Two shots allow you to have multiple shots down range without wast of ammo or having too much to worry about fliers. The evalutaion needs to be quick and doesn't mean your gun goes off of target either.

.380 is a decent round up close with good rounds, I have a good friend who is a gun nut, has lots of guns (to me anyway) and he carries a tiny little .22 semi-auto when he goes running and he feels good about it. Multiple shots/hits increase the potential for hits and lethality during the contact.

When concerned about terminal balistics a 9mm will always have more power/energy than a 380 when both are comparable rounds (like Winchester SXT, Golden Saber, or whatever...) just as a .40 will outpace a 9, and .44 mag will outperform a .40. This can be a plus with the real limiting factors (as I see them) being concealability and trying to shoot a larger caliber in a smaller package; it can hurt.

Like my friend with the .22 LR says. It is more about shot placement than power of the round. Is power a factor, of course, but even the guy with the kevlar vest can be taken out if the rounds go where you want them to and you have the skill to put them there.
 
I guess what I'm saying is that if 380 only has a 60% one stop percentage, then the odds of 3 shots not stopping a person are 30%^3 = 2.7%. So basically with 3 shots a 60% one stop percentage becomes a 97.3% one stop shot percentage.

Am I doing the math correctly there?

When thought of in terms of 3 shots, suddenly bad one shot stop percentages look pretty good.
 
In a life or death situation caliber is not really the main issue. You use what you have. If the biggest gun you can pack for what ever reason is a 22 or 25 acp or you are carrying a 500 mag. S&W, that is what you have to use. So, that said, if T.S.H.T.F. and you feel you have to shoot you do so until one of two things happens, 1/ the threat is no longer a threat (this dose not mean dead, it means no longer trying to do you injury) or 2/ you get the opportunity to break contact and get to a safe location where you can call the police. You are shooting to save a life, one, two, or three rounds may or may not do it so practice as you feel proper. For me it meant practice until it is nearly instinctual. One hand, two hand, close contact one hand, strong and weak side, and the most important bullet placement. If your not hitting your attacker center mass or head all you are doing is maybe making him flinch.
 
Believe me, I get that in a life or death situation you use what you have and shot placement is very important.

But in the gun selection phase, choice of caliber is important because often people carry around bigger guns based on the logic that 380 is underpowered. I'm just questioning if 380 is really underpowered if you consider multiple shots. Because if it's true that multiple shots from a 380 make up for its underpoweredness, then there's no reason to put up with carrying around a bigger gun.
 
I guess what I'm saying is that if 380 only has a 60% one stop percentage, then the odds of 3 shots not stopping a person are 30%^3 = 2.7%. So basically with 3 shots a 60% one stop percentage becomes a 97.3% one stop shot percentage.

Am I doing the math correctly there?
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You are, but the underlying premise is flawed. Hold on a sec...

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OK. Marshall and Sanow's study is based on some really questionable pseudoscience, and they never released their raw data. I have no clue what a "one shot stop" is, because I don't know if the hits in question were to vitals, soft tissue, or the CNS. I wouldn't really base any sort of decision on their work.

I'm not a big fan of the .380, but I'll admit that some of the newer defensive loads seem somewhat promising. At the end of the day, however, I'd prefer to carry something a bit more powerful.

Regardless of loading, one should practice for multiple shots.
 
My only concern is that odd occurance... I carry my Colt Gov't .380 with 8 rounds (7+1)... 3 rounds of .380 for each bad guy, but there are 3 bad guys... Uh, oh. ...when it might only take the double-tap with a 9/40/45.

I still go back to the premise... a .380 on you is better than any .45 left at home/truck/safe, but it's not the ideal setup.
 
I'm no professional, but I've always seen the one-shot stop statistics as another way to compare bullets. It's like muzzle energy, bullet weight, bullet construction, etc. None of the above are an end all to the "perfect caliber".
 
yes, putting more shots into an attacker increases the chances of stopping them, but i figure that if i'm within 3 yards of my attacker and i have enough time to get 3 shots off with a .380, i'll have time to get off 3 shots with my .45

consider this though...

there's a guy in prison for life in WV because a guy tried to rob him (maybe he broke into his house, i don't remember) and they said he shot him too many times

i don't know what type of gun he was using, if it was a shotgun and he shot him 5 times, it was probably excessive

i don't know if he actually stopped shooting the guy when the guy stopped trying to attack and the authorities just thought it was excessive

but it goes to show you that putting multiple rounds into an attacker can lead to more trouble even after the attacker has been successfully stopped
 
Go out and shoot some live game -'chucks, squirrels, feral dogs ,etc ,with your 380 then tell me that you're impressed ! I've done that and was distinctly un-impressed .
As there are a number of very small 9mm pistols now I suggest you get one of them instead of a 380.
 
Mete....you expect us to believe that you shot a squirrel with a .380 ACP and the thing didn't die? :eek:

Come on Mete, last time I shot a squirrel with a .22lr, the poor thing didn't even know what hit it. It was instant carnage. I guess squirrels in your end of the woods must be carrying bullet proof vests. In that case, better get yourself a 50 caliber rifle to deal with these pesky critters. :p

I also find it hard to believe that woodchucks are impervious to .380 ACP. The ones near your home must have grown some pretty thick bullet proof skin. :D

It's these kind of made-up and irresponsible statements that get passed on as reality in these forums, and unfortunately newbies believe these myths and make uninformed decisions as a result.
 
Here, let me fix it for you...
yes, putting more shots into an attacker increases the chances of stopping them, but i figure that if i'm within 3 yards of my attacker and i have enough time to get 3 shots off with a .380, he will have time to get off 3 shots with his .45
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Does that give you another perspective on it? :)
 
Mete....you expect us to believe that you shot a squirrel with a .380 ACP and the thing didn't die?

Come on Mete, last time I shot a squirrel with a .22lr, the poor thing didn't even know what hit it. It was instant carnage. I guess squirrels in your end of the woods must be carrying bullet proof vests. In that case, better get yourself a 50 caliber rifle to deal with these pesky critters.

I also find it hard to believe that woodchucks are impervious to .380 ACP. The ones near your home must have grown some pretty thick bullet proof skin.

It's these kind of made-up and irresponsible statements that get passed on as reality in these forums, and unfortunately newbies believe these myths and make uninformed decisions as a result.
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+1
Critters, n humans is difernt things!!
I've seen good solid hits on deer taking out hart and lungs, and they ran 200 yds. Not a good comparison.
 
I wouldn't put any credence into those caliber ratings for stopping power. At least not for the idea of two or three shots of one caliber equaling one shot of a different caliber. There are too many variables that come into play for any given shooting incident.

Speaking personally, I don't carry 380 but I think it would be completely adequate as a personal defense handgun. The key is being able to get shots on target where they might do some good. That doesn't mean shooting someone in the arm or leg. I also like a high round count. A 38 special five shot snubby used to be what most people carried back in the day. Twelve to sixteen rounds of 380 or 9mm or whatever you choose is so much better.
 
Hitting a squirrel with a .380ACP is like hitting a man with a tank shell. I'm sorry, but I don't buy the story that .380ACP is ineffective against squirrels. I smell BS!
Statements such as these are really irresponsible. :mad:
 
Good ammo

I don't own a .380, but a friend does, and likes shooting WWB for practice and Glaser Pow'r Ball for SD. Seems to be a very effective round those Glaser's.
Again, just my opinion, good factory SD ammo in something like the .380acp is what is needed. And practice, practice, practice.


{Or shoot a .45acp!:D} Just kidding.
 
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