380 auto and 9mm luger(9x19)

Which is then the REAL difference between the 380 acp, 9mm Luger, 9 mm Israeli, 9mm Bergman-Bayard?

Only the length of case as it seems to me (and SAAMI specs are different) since:
9x18 is 380 acp
9x19 is 9mm Luger
9x21 is 9mm Israeli
9x23 is 9mm Bergman-Bayard or 9mm Danish.

The real difference:
The first enters less powder as in the latter (due to difference in case Volumen). SAAMI specs are different.

That is the ONLY difference as far I can see.
 
Since I can not get here in Southamerica gun powder commercially I have to use the least of gun powder possible to achieve to most of velocity.

That is why I have to look allways for the most efficient caliber.

Very eeficient would be the 380 loaded to 9mm Luger levels but surpassing SAAMI specs.
The next efficient would be the 9mm Luger as it has almost no empty airspace in the case if leaded hot and that seems to be the most efficient caliber.

If you have a spare powder you may could get to 357 mag or 44 mag energy levels with the 9x21 or 9x23 calibers. Probably again surpassing SAAMI specs. But technically that may be achievable.

The case thickness and construction may be similar to all of the caliber in the "9mm" range (only difference is the case length as is in similar manner with the 357 mag and 38 spl).
 
The .380 (9mm Short) is not very similar to the other 9mm cartridges. It is different in every dimension except bullet diameter whereas the others in that series are closely related except for length.
There is some history of it being overloaded in strong guns but it is not something I will do.
 
380 is loaded to lower pressures, and looking at specs the brass is thinner.
Load for both 380 acp and 9mm, and use specific dies for each.
 
>am i the only one who thought a 380 acp was just a shortened(apparently by only 2 millimeters) 9mm luger because of the whole 9mm kurz/9mm short thing?

You're not the only one, but most of us actually LOOK at the case drawings in every manual and can see that they are NOT the same.

For 9mm pistols, there are:

9x19 (9mm Luger, 9mm Parabellum, and, I am sure, a bunch of other names)

.380 Auto (also called the .380 ACP, 9mm Browning, 9mm Corto, 9mm Kurz, 9mm Short, 9×17mm, 9x17 Browning, 9mm Browning Kurz, and 9 mm Browning Court)

.38 Super (now named the .38 Super +P by SAAMI)

.38 Auto (both the Auto and Super have been referred to as 9x23 in the past)

9x23 Win

9x25 Dillon

9mm Ultra

9mm Makarov

9x18 Police

9x20 Browning (9mm Browning Long)

9mm Bergmann Bayard

9mm Steyer

9mm Win Mag

There are probably others out there.
 
For 9mm pistols, there are:

9x19 (9mm Luger, 9mm Parabellum, and, I am sure, a bunch of other names)

.380 Auto (also called the .380 ACP, 9mm Browning, 9mm Corto, 9mm Kurz, 9mm Short, 9×17mm, 9x17 Browning, 9mm Browning Kurz, and 9 mm Browning Court)

.38 Super (now named the .38 Super +P by SAAMI)
.38 Auto (both the Auto and Super have been referred to as 9x23 in the past)
9x23 Win
9x25 Dillon
9mm Ultra
9mm Makarov
9x18 Police
9x20 Browning (9mm Browning Long)
9mm Bergmann Bayard
9mm Steyer
9mm Win Mag

There are probably others out there.
Click to expand...


You left out the 9mm Jwrowland77. (See post # 12) ;)
 
Also consider 9x25 Mauser Export.

Note that 9x25 Dillon is a bottleneck from 10mm Norma head diameter.

Note that 9mm Makarov is actually 9.2 mm.

.38 Super will be listed as 9x23 SR (Semi-Rimmed) in some European data.
 
At the risk of sounding jaded... are we going to talk about loading 380 with 9mm dies?

The 9x19mm [Luger] is not just a longer 9x17mm [380].

The 9x19 tapers from 0.391 to 0.380"
The 9x17 tapers from 0.374 to 0.373"

No overlap. No way could it ever work, right?

The 9x19mm carbide ring in the sizing die is 0.371"
The 9x17mm carbide ring in the sizing die is 0.367"

The 380 brass is going to come out of the 9mm die and spring back 0.002" to 0.373"

The 380 chamber is somewhere between 0.381 and 0.385".
We would expect clearance of between 0.008 and 0.012" by using 9mm dies on a 380.

Does it always work?
No. Not everyone has a Redding 9mm carbide die.
 
Hey folks,

Maybe something has gone way over my head in this thread, but I am a bit confused. If someone is suggesting using .380 brass for use in a 9mm Luger semi-auto application, I think there is a big mistake here. The .380 and the 9mm both headspace on the case mouth, so a 9mm would not fit a .380 chamber, and a .380 would not headspace properly. What am I missing here?

Best wishes,
Dave Wile
 
Dear David Wile,

I was just wondering if the 380 acp could be loaded to 9mm Luger Levels regards energy Levels for experimental sake.
If it is just slightly shorter and has the same bullet why not load it to 35000 psi pressures if you have an corresponding (experimental) gun!

I like to Experiment. Actually being located in Southamerica with lots of reloading restrictions I am forced to be an experimenter in order to make things work.
 
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
Factory ammo is 805 fps 95 gr.
With hot handloads I have got 1187 fps 158 gr out of a 380.
The 380 brass and blow back actions are not the problem.
Fear of exceeding SAAMI registered pressure per published loads, getting longer OAL to feed, getting more powder to fit, case support, chamber wall thickness, slide mass, recoil spring force, barrel length, and individual recoil pain tolerance are the limiting factors.

I load 380 to 3 levels. The wimpiest is = ~ Buffalo Bore +P. This is good for Kel-Tec P3AT and Ruger LCP. They have thin chambers, poor case support, light slides, and wimpy recoil springs. They claim 1100 fps 90 gr Gold Dot in those short barrels. I can barely do that with no safety margin. The case bulge is starting.
 
Dear Clark,

That is what I am talking about hot loading 380 acp to 9mm Luger Levels if
You say: <<With hot handloads I have got 1187 fps 158 gr out of a 380.>>.
How much powder did you use for that purpose and which powder?

That is what I mean.

So basically the gun is the restriction for the 380 to be loaded to 9mm Luger Levels.
If you had an 9mm Luger full size pistol in 380 acp with similar thick Chambers and construction the 380 could reach 9mm Luger Levels.

With the right gun an 380 acp could be safely loaded to 1200 fps with an 124 grain lead bullet I guess (obviously surpassing SAAMI specs). SAAMI is therefore nothing else than an Standard which ammo and gun have to meet. But ammo may be capable of more if the gun is adjusted.
 
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

The most power I can get from 380, 9x19MM, and 9x23mm is with Power Pistol, 158 gr LSWC or XTP, and resizing the loaded ammo so it drops into the chamber. I have tried a lot of powders and bullets.

What I do is work up with a towel wrapped around the pistol so i can catch the brass and look at it under magnification. It is hot and burns a little when touched. What I look for in those cartridges is guppy belly case bulge from over the feed ramp, pierced primer, or in the case of a Kahr, failure to extract. If I get a guppy belly or a pierced primer, I stop. I typically back off 2 grains and call that max.

I did have a WWII vintage Beretta 1934 380 bulge a chamber with a triple load of Bullseye. I can afford to throw away guns, but I don't want to hurt old WWII Berettas.

I have flown an airplane, gone over a jump on a motorcycle, and I have poked a rattlesnake with my rifle. When there are risks involved, you have to know what you are doing.
 
Dear Clarc

So how many grains of Pistol Power were used to get <<With hot handloads I have got 1187 fps 158 gr out of a 380.>>?

I want to compare that with my 9mm Luger loads. My data is Lee lead 124 grain Trincated Cone TL bullet over 3 grains 700X type shotshell powder. My deep seated (38 spl cases but shot from an 357 mag Pietta SAA model 1873 revolver) lead 148 grain Wadcutters I load to 3.4 grain same powder.
 
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I can squeeze in 8.5 gr Power Pistol 380 158 gr 1.09" [Bushed Husqvarna 1907], 11 gr Power Pistol 9x19mm 158 gr 1.169" [Throated Kel-Tec P11], and 16 gr Power Pistol 9x23mm 158 gr 1.35" [reamed and throated Tokarev].
 
First off, let's be clear about something, there have been a lot of 9mm caliber cartridges produced in the last century plus. Only ONE of them in the 9mm Luger /9mm Parabellum, and today often called the 9x19 NATO.

Some have been longer cases, some shorter, and one I can think of is dimensionally identical to the 9mm Luger, but is loaded to lower pressure, the Italian 9mm Glisenti.

The .380ACP (aka 9mm Kurz, etc.) IS a 9mm bore size, and it is shorter than the 9mm Parabellum, so the name is entirely accurate.

It's called the 9mm "short", it is NOT called the 9mm Luger short, because it is not a shorter 9mm Luger case. The case dimensions are different, in other ways than just length. Take a look at a case drawing, its OBVIOUS.

So basically the gun is the restriction for the 380 to be loaded to 9mm Luger Levels.
Click to expand...

Basically, the gun is the usual limiting factor for ALL CARTRIDGES.

You need to look at the history of both the cartridge AND the arms chambered for it. Basically the .380ACP was the largest, most powerful round Browning could fit into his small blowback operated semi auto designs. The 9mm Luger round was both too large (long) physically, and also loaded to a pressure too high to be safe in the Browning pocket guns.

A blowback 9mm Luger is possible, Astra did it, but its quite a different feeling gun than locked breech pistols in the same caliber.

You COULD build a bolt action or stout single shot (falling block) and use a .380 case and load it up to 50k or 60k psi, maybe even more before the brass fails, (with a fully supported chamber), and you would get substantially increased velocity over the factory round. You would also stand a good chance of damaging or even destroying the common .380 blowback pistol with such a loading.

If you wish to discuss loads over SAAMI spec limits, use the provided disclaimer, EACH AND EVERY POST!!!

If you wish to discuss loads so far above listed max levels that they could be dangerous in the common guns (even if they aren't in YOUR gun) I recommend you do it in private. (use PMs), otherwise the discussion will be ended.
 
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