.38 vs .357- Law Enforcement Edition

Which was the best Law Enforcement cartridge?

  • .38 Special

    Votes: 30 32.3%

  • .357 Magnum

    Votes: 63 67.7%
  • Total voters
    93
  • Poll closed .
In our rural county we carried 357 and 44's, we then settled on 357's out of a model 19 Smith. We also carried 3" mag in our 870's. The reason I was told the 357 was used was because of greater distances, BTW we qualified @ 50 yds.
 
When I first started in LE my agency was restricted to .38 special. After a few years .357 was allowed but only if you could qualify with it. From that experience I noted that many officers could shoot the .38 well but a much smaller percentage could shoot the magnum round accurately.
 
Never been an Leo but have carried both. Do you have any examples of bad guys who were stopped by a .357 who wouldn't have been stopped by a .38?
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How do you prove a negative? All you can do is look at what has and what has not worked in the past. There is no denying that the 357 mag is significantly more effective than ANY 38 Special load.
 
The .357 is certainly more powerful than the .38. But power isn't a synonym for effectiveness.


One way to compare effectiveness of the .38 to the .357 would be to analyze shootings from agencies that switched from .38 to .357 or .357 to .38. We could also compare law enforcement agencies that used the .38 to similar agencies that used the .357 and see if there were significant differences in officer involved shootings. We'd want to see if there was a pattern of more officers injured in shootings that correlated to the use of .38 or .357 by those agencies.
 
I voted for .38spl because it certainly resolved more conflicts than a .357 ever has.
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Of course it has because it's been used a whole lot more. I'm sure there are many cases where the 38 failed where a 357 would have made a difference.

As a cop if I was forced to carry a revolver it would be loaded with 357's. Take a look around, people are jacked. They're bigger and stronger than ever before and they're using drugs that make them completely impervious to pain.

That being said I don't the 357 is ideal at all. Too much flash and recoil.
 
I'm voting for the .357 Magnum. Regardless of which theory of cartridge effectiveness you subscribe to, it's pretty undeniable that you can make a bullet do very different things when you've got another 40-50% more velocity to work with (and that is in standard loadings like Federal, Hornady, Remington, Speer, and Winchester).

You've also got a greater degree of versatility with the .357 Magnum which is important because a cop in NYC probably has different needs than one in rural Montana. The big city cop can load up with high-velocity 125gr JHP's which will expand violently and penetrate moderately while the rural cop can use heavier 158 gr or 180 gr loadings which are better suited to the four-legged suspects he might have to deal with.

Finally, the .357 Magnum gives a cop better performance against certain intermediate barriers, specifically automotive bodies and glass. Remember, one of the main reasons that the .357 Magnum was originally developed was to better penetrate car bodies. The need of a cop to be able to shoot someone inside a car is still there and one of the main reasons that both auto glass and sheet steel are incorporated into the FBI's bullet testing.
 
.38/.357

Carried the .38spl, the Treasury load, a +P+ 110gr JHP that was supposed to yield 1250 fps, for the first third of my career. During one detail I was on at academy, a Border Patrol instructor claimed his agency had no qualms with the load.

But my outfit had two distinct failure to stops in fairly close succession and the switch was made to .357/125gr , or .357/110 gr. At least for the parks that had K and L frames so chambered....there were more than a few sites that had Model 10's and 15's, and I don't know what they did. Five years later, everybody in the agency started with autos nationwide, so the magnum era only lasted 5 yrs or so. And I don't think we had a shooting in that time frame with magnum ammo.

The other issue with +P+ was that quality control and velocity was all over the map. One supplier would get it right, and velocities were consistent, and at the speeds specified. Another and there were lot to lot variations,and low velocity overall. Im my experience, Federal was our best source, and Winchester the biggest culprit. The two failure to stops, and the velocity and quality issues, spelled the end of +P+ for the NPS.

When I arrived at my last site, I promptly screwed on a set of Pachmyer grips that I had carried from site to site (in those years, the park owned the firearms, one did not receive an issue gun from the academy, as now) to their L-frame. This was a common practice, but my very old school district ranger objected. Problem was, for once, I had policy on my side,and he could not over rule, which was just the beginning of more than one conflict I had with the fella. At the time, .38 +P+ ammo was still issued.

When magnum ammo was authorized, folks started having some trouble. On the first qual with the new ammo, there were folks with blood blisters, (I kid you not). Folks had not been assuming a firm shooting grip with the .38s and mag ammo was beating them up. Also, about a 2/3 majority of folks complaining of flash blast and recoil. The District Ranger, he who caused me such grief over my square butt Pachs, promptly weht out and bought finger grooved Pachmyer Grippers for everybody, which helped some. With the Pach's, and the big L frame, .357/125 was manageable for me, but marginal shooters (and there were many in those days) had trouble with 125gr mag ammo. The 110 gr loads were a bit milder, and a quantity of those were kept on hand for those instances. The 110 gr loads made about the velocity the +P+ .38's were supposed to, somewhere around 1250 fps +/-.

Never had a shooting or a shooting on any site I worked. We did dispatch a lot of deer and other wildlife injured in MVA's, as well as feral animals. There was no comparison in the terminal ballistics of the .357/125 and the old .38/110 +P+ in that use.

All that's changed now. Flat guns instead of round guns, and 3 different auto pistol calibers are authorized. Screening, training and policy has weeded out many of the marginal LE types, and by and large, the Rangers are well equipped and good shooters who are tactically sound.
 
Carried the .38spl, the Treasury load, a +P+ 110gr JHP that was supposed to yield 1250 fps, for the first third of my career. During one detail I was on at academy, a Border Patrol instructor claimed his agency had no qualms with the load.
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The Border Patrol never used +P+ 38's. The 110 grain load the BP issued was a Remington magnum load.
 
My Experience

I was a uniformed city cop from 1970 until I went into detectives in 1981. I was issued the standard Smith & Wesson Model 10, Military & Police in .38 Special with a 4" bull barrel. Detectives were issued the same gun with 2" barrels. That was one great gun. I wish I had bought mine when it became available to buy when we switched to semi-autos.

We had our ammo in two leather dump pouches on our Sam Browne belts that seldom worked well - usually a few rounds got stuck inside. Our issue ammo was the 200 grain round nose lead bullet that we called "the 200 grain pumpkin."

When working nights and getting off at 4 AM we always drank together until morning and the subject of the .357 came up quite often. For us as city cops we felt the .357 would penetrate too much and risk killing or injuring innocent bystanders. It was also agreed that some of us would be unable to handle the greater blast and recoil. The State Patrol guys did carry 5-inch .357's in crossdraw holsters and seemed to really like them.
 
When I've carried a .357 Mag for bipedal self-defense, it was always loaded with the FBI load: 158 grain LSWC or 158 grain LSWCHP, both HP's.

The, reality is for self-defense, there ain't much advantage of a .357 Mag. Might just be more disadvantages. The .357 Mag has negatives that can't be overcome: huge, bright muzzle flash that will obliterate night vision thus causing one to lose sight retention, which ain't good were a bad guy shooting at a good guy; recoil makes sight picture retention more difficult, and we already know the tactical disadvantages of losing sight of a bad guy who's shooting at a good guy; and muzzle blast of a .357 Mag out of a 4" barrel is more than deafening, it's disorienting.

As long as the FBI load gives 12" penetration, I see no need for .357 Mag rounds for self-defense.

Except in entertainment media, the .357 Mag is not a man-stopper, for tactical man-stopper handgun is myth.
 
BTW, most law enforcement agencies have policies that prevent their cops from shooting at moving vehicles. A vehicle doin' 80 with a dead driver is an out-of-control asphalt missile. So vehicle penetration is mostly a moot point. On felony car stops, it's all about an 870 with 00 buck or slugs.
 
One More Thought on This (or maybe two)

I remember we were stuck with 200 brain .38's because our brass believed they would tumble after a certain point, causing more tissue damage (presumably stopping power) without the higher velocity. We were a bunch of young bucks then, most of us fresh back from Vietnam and wanted to set the country back on the course it was on when we left. We poo-pooed both the ammo and the brass at the time. We wanted to use Super Vel ammo, by Lee Jurras, but no, the brass said. It turned out, years after the swith to semi-autos, that the brass were right, but in 2 inch barrels or derringers. Go figure.

In the 80s, after I had served in Patrol through the 70s for ten years and nearly got fired at least as many times for my aggressive tendencies, I was promoted to detectives. I was a rookie all over again. The first homicide call-out I got was the murder of a plastic surgeon in the office by an outraged woman patient who felt he had botched the facelift. She made an appointment at the end of the day. Instead of leaving, she hid in a closet until everyone left but the doc. Out she pops from the closet and blazes away with her .38, loaded with 110 grain +P= ammo at a range of less than 15 feet. She goes home, reloads and then fatally shoots herself.

I had to attend the autopsy the next morning, (part of my education, you see). As the autopsy assistant (who was a very hot chick, btw) cut away, I was amazed to observe that of the six hollow-points the doc was shot with, ONLY ONE expanded - the one the hit his pelvic cradle. The others could have been reloaded and used again. Go figure. (And no, I never asked the hot assistant out.)
 
I was originally issued 158 gr SWC and then we went to 110 gr +P+. Never shot anyone so I never had an issue with the bullets.
 
A little late to the party but I voted .38 special but that's dependent upon using a quality defensive round. If looking at loads available "back in the day" and still available today, look at the .38 spl +P 158 gr lead semi-wadcutter hollow point made by Remington. It was made from softer lead than Winchester and therefore expanded better. Take a look at the photo comparison between the Remington and Winchester loads when fired into water from both a snubby and a four inch barrel. http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38 Special 158gr LSWCHP.htm. You can Google the round and find some pretty good results in ballistic gel from both snubbies and four inch barreled revolvers.

Most shooters (including police) handle the lower pressure +P rounds better than .357. Given that plus a load with effective terminal ballistics, the .38 spl would get my nod.

Note: not a police officer.
 
I know this thread is old, and I'm just finding it.... I live in a rural area of NW Montana a mile outside of city limits.. we do get our four-legged critters that will leave one with the hair standing. So I carry a .357 Magnum 4" with 158-gr JSP's.
 
"we do get our four-legged critters that will leave one with the hair standing. So I carry a .357 Magnum 4" with 158-gr JSP's."

I agree, good sound choice for 4 legged predators.
 
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