.38 Super vs 9mm +P or +P+

Did anyone other than Colt chamber a gun in 9x23?
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That's a good question. Other than Colt I'm not sure if anyone else ever did. EAA Witness maybe? Para-Ord?

Most guns I've seen in 9x23 have been custom builds on 1911's. Usually switch barrel 38 Supers. Or custom competition guns built on various 1911 frames.

The round was developed to fill a niche. But when they lowered the power factor the niche was gone. Sales of the guns dropped like a rock.

It's chief competition other than 38 Super, was the 9mm, 40 S&W and 357 Sig...all of which were selling extremely well at the time. All of the latter 3 from guns of the same size. The 9x23 has to be fired from a gun that will hold the 45 acp and the Super though.

Here is a round that has a greater capacity than the 357 Sig and out performs it. It has a potential as a very good defensive round. But no manufacturer picked it up.

It has the same length case as the 38 Super but is stronger internally. This also makes it hold less powder than the 38 Super but it operates at 55,000 psi max pressure, much more than the Super or the 9mm. In it's more powerful loads it can be tough on barrel life, or so I've been told.

It would be nice to see a couple of manufacturers take a small risk and issue a few guns in this round.

tipoc
 
Some yes. I posted links earlier where you can see for yourself and compare.

I also mentioned that for most commercial defensive loads it makes little practical difference.

Most of the commercial loads for plinking are with a 130 gr. pill at 9mm velocities.

You can see more here...

http://38super.net/Pages/comparisons.html

Cor-Bon, Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, Wilson Combat and a couple more offer ammo close to the full potential of the Super.


tipoc
 
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So would you say the .38 Super, with FACTORY LOADS, is more powerful than 9mm +P+?
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The SAMMI specs for the 38 Super +P is a MAP of 36.5K. The 9mm specs at 35K and the 9mm +P is a MAP of 38.5K. There is no SAMMI 9mm +P+ so that can be whatever a manufacturer chooses to put that label on. All things being equal (and they rarely are), a max spec 38 Super +P has an edge on a max 9mm +P.
 
The 38 Super has always been on my bucket list. I have found through exposure to .40S&W and 10MM. that the greater powder column produces better inherent accuracy. I think this has to do with the tendancy for shorter cases to have a compressed powder charge at higher velocities.
At any rate I would love to find a Colt combat commander in 38 Super but I see they are not offered in their current catolog. Does anyone have an offering in the $1000 RANGE?
 
Star never made a .38 Super.
The PD was a very small .45 ACP gun.
The closest caliber they made to the Super was 9mm largo. It was only offered in full-sized service weapons.
 
After World War II the engineers at Star dusted off the plans for the Modelo M (9mm Largo/38 ACP) and decided some improvements were in order. The Modelo M continued to be produced, but the Modelos Super made improvements on its design and were produced from 1946 until 1983 when it was discontinued. Over its life, the Supers were offered in seven chamberings. In 1946 the Super M was debuted in 9mm Largo and 38 Super, soon the Modelo A (9mm Largo) underwent 'Superization' to become the Super A. Later that year the Modelo C (9mm Browning Long) was 'Superized as well, but was only produced in limited trial quantities. The Modelo B (9mm Luger) was also modified in this year to become the Super B. The year 1948 saw the addition of the Modelos SI (.32 ACP), and S (.380 ACP, 22 ozs.). In 1950 the Modelo D (.380 ACP, smaller than a Super S) was modified, in 1958 the Modelo P (.45 ACP) and finally in 1971 the Modelo SM (.380 ACP with adjustable rear sight) was modified. Production of all Super Models continued until 1983, except for the Super C (1946 only), Super D (1950 only) and Super P (1958 only).
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http://www.9mmlargo.com/star_spr/

So for a period of time they did produce guns in 38 Super and 38acp.

There may have been other efforts in this direction by Star and some may have been converted from 9mm Largo to 38 Super.

tipoc
 
Tipoc-
Star never marketed a gun as a .38 Super. They were 9mm/38 Which is 9mm largo/.38 auto.
The "Super" guns were called that because they were a new, quick take down model, not for the Super .38 cartridge.
 
Yeah, I know Bill. That is, I know about about the gun being called the Super and that having nothing to do with the 38 Super.

But as the source I linked to specifically says the gun was issued in 38 Super and 38 acp the question is maybe open a bit.

tipoc
 
My Star PD had SUPER stamped on the chamber and so did the frame. Does that mean it's not 38 SUPER?

I've shot 38acp and 38super with no problem.
 
While .38 Super can be safely shot in many largo guns, Star never marketed a gun marked .38 Super. The largo web site is misleading.

No Star PDs were ever made in .38 Super, and no PDs were made in the "Super" configuration (quick takedown)- so no PDs were marked "Super."
Your gun must have been another model. I have cut largo Stars down and opened the breech face for .38 Super, and possibly even engraved the barrel as such. Perhaps it was one of those!
 
I have converted the Star Super B to 9x23, running 158 gr at 1.29"
I have reamed out the cowling to get a bigger diameter recoil spring to fit.

I have converted the Tokarev to 9x23, running 158 gr at 1.3"

Custom chambers work better for me than the standard 9x23mmWin reamer from Brownells. I need more throat space for the 158 gr.
 
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