.38 Super vs 9mm +P or +P+

M

Model12Win

Moderator
From a 5" bbl 1911, is a .38 Super more powerful than a 9mm +P or +P+ from a 4.5-5" bbl Glock or Beretta pistol? Some I've spoken to seem to think .38 Super is the more powerful.

I am interested in the cartridge, and am eyeing a Colt O2991 in .38 Super as both a range target gun but also as a home defense gun with hollow point ammo. What do you guys know about .38 Super? Is it a fun cartridge? I do not reload, but see that Armscor and other companies offer it for a good price. Would you say .38 Super is good enough for self defense with hollow points? Is it an effective caliber for that purpose?

Thanks!
 
You can go here, it is one of the better resources on the 38 Super.

http://www.38super.net/

In general the 38 Super can be a more powerful round than the 9mm. This is because it has a larger case and the capacity to hold more powder. Because of this it can also accept a heavier bullet than the 9mm can.

The Super operates at higher pressures than the standard 9mm; 36,500 psi vs. 35,000 for the standard 9mm. In order for the 9mm to match the Super in velocity with the same weight bullets the 9mm must operate at +P or +P+ pressure levels which can be tough on some of the guns it is chambered for.

While the Super has a 50-100 fps advantage in velocity, in self defense there is probably so little practical difference that it will come down to other factors, like the gun.

If you go here you can see some of the commercial loads available for the Super and compare them to the 9mm.

http://www.midwayusa.com/38-super/br?cid=21664

tipoc
 
38 Super is ballistically identical to 357 Sig which is a great thing. Law enforcement loves 357 Sig.

+P means next to nothing for 38 Super due to history per previous link.

But I also like 9mm 1911s. I like having 10 rounds in a single stack which you get with either.

9 is better for range and ammo availability, 38 Super has more power.
 
38 Super is an excellent caliber if you reload, or if you can even find factory ammo at high prices. The way I like to practice, 38 Super is not practical, so I regularly shoot 9mm 124 grain +P Hornady XTP loads from several of my nines including a 5" 1911, and I'm very pleased with this load n my guns.
 
9 is better for range and ammo availability, 38 Super has more power.
Click to expand...

But that power increase is so small that you will not see any practical difference.

There was a time when 38super was very popular in IPSC type games. Guys would hotrod the ctg to make major power factor. It allowed you to carry more rounds in a gun identical to your buddy thst was shooting .45acp

Times have changed. 9x23 and other ctg have been born. 38super still shows up at matches, but for a non IPSC event or anything that doesnt use an archaic "power factor" rating (that has NOTHING to do with SD potential), the 38super doesnt do anything beter then the 9mm

Im not saying dont get one if its what you want. Just understand ammo is MUCH more limited in both availability and variety vs 9mm, and you really dont get anything more out of it.

Still a cool round. Set up a 1911 in 38super just like a probation enforcer in Al Capone days... Buy a poor fitting suit and go shoot a match as a G man of the '20s. Could be fun
 
Judging from the online reviews and tests, the choice of bullet might be more important than the differences between the two cartridges.
 
Interesting, thanks guys.

Buffalo Bore shows that between it's 9mm +P+ 124 grain loads and it's .38 Super "+P" 124 grain load, the Super only gets about 50 FPS faster with the same barrel length.

So I assume Buffalo Bore offers the hottest factory load in this caliber. They also offer the hottest factory 9mm +P+ loads that I'm aware of... so... can handloading actually (safely) get you a 124 grain .38 Super moving faster than Buffalo Bore's 1359 FPS from a 5" barrel?

If not... I'm not seeing any real advantage to the round for my purposes. I've heard some say that .38 Super is ballistically similar to .357 SIG and even .357 Magnum. I'm just not seeing numbers anywhere near that in my research.
 
Check into "super face".
It was a term coined by IPSC competitors who drove the .38 Super so hard that case head blow-outs resulted in bits of brass coming back through the slide and peppering the shooter's face.
A friend who was competing at that time said it was common to drive 115gr grain bullets at well over 1500fps.
That led to the development of the 9x23 Winchester, which could handle the pressures necessary to get those ballistics.
Early 9x23 specs indicated a max pressure of 55,000psi, which was later amended to 45,000, but nobody(?) seems to know if the cartridge really changed, or if they just backed-off the claimed max.
 
A major drawback to using 9mm in a 1911 is cartridge length.
The Super simply feeds better. It's longer. The 1911 has to be adapted to 9mm.
It was designed around the .38 auto/.45 rounds. 9mm didn't come until much later in the Colt guns.
An advantage to using Super is that you can simply change barrels to shoot 9mm.
I wouldn't trust Buffalo Bore's specs to be accurate.
 
I wouldn't trust Buffalo Bore's specs to be accurate.
Click to expand...

And why not? Buffalo Bore uses actual guns to test velocities, all listed on the website. Almost all who've tried to replicate the chrono results get nearly identical the same thing. Buffalo Bore is well known to be very honest about it's velocities.
 
Keep in mind that the .38 Super predates the 9mm +p and the 9mm +p+. It even predates the .357 Magnum by several years.

Essentially, it is the now long obsolete .38 ACP loaded to what would be now considered +p+ pressures, to make it "Super".

Considerably more velocity then the 9mm Luger of the same vintage, Since the 9mm has been upgraded, then upgraded again, and the .38 Super has not had the same percentage of performance increase, they are now very close in speed with 125gr-ish bullets. 124gr 9mm vs. 130gr .38 Super.

The Super was always a bit handicapped, its true potential hidden by a 130FMJ bullet which was, for generations, the only factory load.

I believe it was in the 1980s when competitors discovered that the Super could make major power factor when loaded hot with a 150gr bullet, with more rounds in a 1911 than a .45

The Super also proved to be an accurate round IF barrels were cut to headspace the round on the case mouth (like the 9mm and .45) rather than on the small "semi rim" that Browning originally designed for that purpose.

IF you handload it, it can be a hot round, essentially hitting .357 ranges with some loads from a govt model gun. However, be aware of "Superface", a hot loaded .38 Super blowing out an under supported case head, something ELSE the competitors discovered when they began hotrodding it.
 
As someone who owns a couple 1911's in 38 super I can tell you that unless you reload you'd likely be better off with a 9mm. Ammo is half the price and not much difference power wise.
That said, the 38 super is a cool round and I wouldn't get rid of mine.

There's 38super and there's 38super+P.
Click to expand...
Same round, no difference.


Jim
 
Last edited:
But that power increase is so small that you will not see any practical difference.
Click to expand...

This is not exactly true. You can get a 160 gr. bullet traveling at over 1100 fps from a 5" barrel with the Super handloading and be well below max pressure. That's not possible with the 9mm without being over pressure.

Both Buffalo Bore and Double Tap sell 147 gr. loads which do over 1200 fps with a 147 gr. bullet. Handloading I've safely done 158 gr. lswc bullets at 1200 fps. Both these loads are below max pressure. Doubletap produces the same 147 gr. load for the 9mm but at 1100 fps and at +P+ pressures close to the edge.

The advantage of the Super over the 9mm is that it is more versatile over a wider range of bullet weights. Bullet for both the 9mm and the 38/357 can be used in loading for the Super. Is is good as a hunting sidearm for up to small deer

The main reason for getting a gun chambered in 38 Super is because you like the round. It is a bit more powerful than the 9mm. A bit less powerful than the 357 Sig. It can do what mid range loads of the 357 Magnum can. It's a fun and useful round.

If you're just looking for a good gun for self defense get a 9mm.

You have to want more than that to get a gun is 38 Super I believe. It tends to be that way.

The Super dominated in competition in the late 80s and 90s when major was based on a power factor of 175. There were several ways to make major and the Super could easily do this. It was especially good in compensated guns which operated best with fast rounds.

Power factor is reached by multiplying the weight of the bullet in gr.s by the velocity of the round and dividing by 1000.

"Super Face" occurred with compensated guns where the point was to get a light weight bullet moving very fast. With a comped gun the faster the round the better the comp worked. With virtually no muzzle flip, times to shot decreased. The effort led some to run the Super to dangerous pressures that the case was not built for. This led to the development of the 9x23 Winchester. Same case length as the Super but with a stronger case which operated at higher pressures.

The 40 S&W easily made major under the older power factor of 175. It did not unseat the Super. This was because the 40 S&W did not work as well in compensated guns.

Soon after the 9x23 appeared the power factor was lowered from 175 to 165 which allowed for the 9mm to be a major caliber.

It should be pointed out that 38 Super still has a major role in the Bianchi Cup and the Steel Challenge.

The Super falls in that category like the 44 Spl., 41 Magnum, and 10mm. you get those rounds not because you need them. They don't do anything other rounds won't. But because you want them. Because you like how they do what they do.

tipoc
 
Last edited:
What ever happened to the 9x21? It seemed like an easy conversion for a lot of guns and a good jump in velocity. But it seems gone now.
 
9x21 was a competition "cheater" round in the U.S. when 9x19 was banned from "major power factor".
In Europe and elsewhere it was a rule-beater in areas that didn't allow 9x19 to be owned by civilians.
The case capacity is the same as 9x19, so you don't really get anything other than a headache finding brass; you can get the same velocities with 9x19.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top