38 super dooper

The old loading of a 130 grain bullet at 1300 fps produced a power factor of 169, which exceeds the 165 threshold for that requirement. Several factory loads from boutique manufacturers will make Major with 124 grain bullets.

Handloaders can select from several powders that will make Major power factor (it's Major Power Factor, not Major Caliber) at standard pressure that does not exceed SAAMI limits. See the second link in post #2. Standard pressure loads with Vit N105 push a 124 grain bullet to 1450 fps, which makes a power factor of 180.

The actual difference between the compensated 38 Super and compensated 45 Auto is the bullet weight. 38 Supers run lighter bullets. If the 45 and 38 Super use the same bullet weight and powder in a compensated gun, the 45 will have less muzzle rise.

http://www.shootingtimes.com/ballistics/compensated-45-vs-compensated-38/
 
Interesting article. It makes some valid points
I'm not a competition shooter. You obviously have this stuff down.

A couple of questions:

Why did they lower the power factor from 180 to 165?

And do you think its a bad idea to tell a new shooter/loader who A) Has a big 38 Super grin on his face as he talks "punybellum"
And B) likely has a new gun with a non-ramped barrel And C)Isn't quite sure about semi-rimmed vs rimless brass....

To be aware that on the internet he can find lots of 38 Super loads that get used in ramped/comped open guns ? And that these loads run 40 k psi + ??

Or that those loads may be a bad idea for a box stock 1911 38 Super?

I don't know,I guess,so I'm just asking. Thanks
 
I'm not sure why they downgraded the power factor. I only know of rumors. Some folks have suggested that they recognized it was tough on some guns and felt there was no need for that. Keep in mind that many competitive shooters shoot more in one year through one gun than most folks shoot through all their guns in a lifetime. With use, parts break, and if they were complaining that they were forking out too much cash for parts, there would be motivation to reduce the required power factor. But I'm speculating.

It's okay to caution people. As always, the best advice is to stay with data published by the manufacturers.

The information in the second link in post #2 was based on published load data by three manufacturers, so it's within the safety margin built into SAAMI specs. And, those load were fired in a box stock 1911 with an unsupported barrel. It can be done safely if using the right components, which the author addresses. It's probably recommended reading for anyone who loads 38 Super.

Lots of folks don't know about rimless 38 Super brass. I'll bet most 38 Super shooters don't know that regular 38 Super brass is semi-rimmed.

Well, the 38 Super is more powerful than the "punybellum", so you can't fault a guy for enjoying that. :)
 
I shot IPSC at Power Factor 175 with .45 and 9mm Miller.

I suspect the Major power factor was reduced to 165 to make 9mm P Open feasible and maybe to keep from beating up the .40 Limited guns.

I would avoid the top Shooting Times loads. Depending on one brand of brass to avoid bulging into the feed ramp is pushing too hard for me.
 
Didn't mean to imply that I wanted to hot rod this gun, as stated earlier if I want to shoot magnums I'll grab a magnum. My interest is purely in the realm of target shooting and enjoying the additional caliber on my loading bench. I refer to the 9mm. as the punybellum as I don't reload for it, mainly because the short puny cases are too small for my fat pudgy fingers, and ammo is cheap enough not to bother.

Additionally of the half-dozen 9's I've owned none could produce the accuracy of a 1911 in .45ACP. Closest has been the CZ 85 combat I now shoot but even then it doesn't quite match up. I attribute this to the short powder column. My experience with the
.40 short&weak (here I go again another synonym to irritate people :rolleyes:)
bears this out as it's another caliber whose accuracy doesn't compete with the 10mm. Just my opinion.
 
A new conundrum, I will be shooting Extreme 124gr. 9mm plated flat points out of my first reloads. Out of 3 reloading manuals I get overall lengths varying from 1.165 to 1.260. Naturally I will do a plunk test when I get the pistol but it hasn't arrived yet and I wanted to get a jump on loading up for it.
 
1.260 OAL for a 9mm from a manual? What manual are you using that provides that data since it exceeds the 1.169" max OAL for the 9mm Luger cartridge?

The accuracy results you found with your 9mm Luger pistols was nothing to do with the short powder column of the cartridge. It's about the gun and/or ammo. Custom Bullseye gun builders make 9mm pistols that equal 45 accuracy, and the 9mm might even be more accurate according to some. Your accuracy results are about your guns/ammo.

The best test of cartridge accuracy is to use a barrel fixture (take the barrel out of the gun and put it in a fixture), with multiple barrels and from different manufacturers, and many, many different loads. Even when using a Ransom Rest, you're having to deal with fit tolerances of the gun parts.
 
The Ransom Rest registers on the frame, but the barrel in most 9 mm and 45 Auto pistol designs registers against the slide, where the sights are. For that reason, if the slide-to-frame fit is not tight, with those pistol designs you can sometimes shoot tighter groups by hand off bags. Here's a Goldcup group I shot off bags 34 years ago. 25 yards and 0.37" C-T-C. I don't think I've ever seen a 1911 Ransom Rest 25 yard group quite that small, but I've probably not used a Ransom Rest more than a dozen times, so it's not much of a sample. Nonetheless, the bags can reveal a lot.

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Since this post is about the 38 Super Dooper I didn't think I needed to elaborate that I'd be using the 9mm bullets in a 38 super. My bad. :rolleyes:
 
I do not know what modern commercial firearms mfgrs do for 38 Super chambers today.
I think most everyone recognizes the original headspace scheme of the semi-rim stopping against the hood is poor. The Nonte chamber headspacing on the case mouth is better.

Is the Nonte chamber the new standard,or do new guns

still used the rim? The Nonte is better for accuracy...or,better said,the old way can hurt accuracy
 
Not to veer off subject but regarding the short powder column, as stated I've owned a half a dozen 9's in my lifetime, Browning High Power, Beretta, Smith's, Sigs and now the CZ none of which provided stellar accuracy performance regardless of bullet/powder combination I tried.

Same held true for the 40S&W although I didn't put in nearly the effort with them, 1 Sig 229, 1 Beretta. Bought a 10mm and never looked back.
While I still have 3 9's as I think it's an adequate self defense round all those pistols bought for target shooting except the CZ85 have been traded off.
If you can provide me with a bullet/powder combination that will prove me wrong I'll be happy to eat crow.:)
 
Brutus, suggest you wait until you get the gun before loading for it.
You are not going to get anything close to the SAAMI maximum OAL with a flatpointed bullet.

The "Nonte" chamber has been the standard for a good many years. I think Colt changed over in 1986 and were about the last. But SAAMI still shows the semi-rim headspace dimension and shoulderless chamber.
 
Yeah I know, putting the cart before the horse but it's 93 degrees outside and I'm a cold weather person . Loaded up 100 rounds of .45ACP today probably going to do some .357's next but those shiny new 38 super dies and starline brass keep calling out to me. ;)
 
On short powder columns: If you look proportion,the 45 ACP is short.It can be very accurate.The 45 Colt is a longer powder column.A number of factors are at work,I admit.But lower load density makes accuracy more challenging in a 45 Colt.

I used to shoot a High Standard Olympic in 22 short.That gun made me look good!

IMO,there is no "out of balance" condition that would make 9mm inaccurate.

Maybe,the neck has to be somewhat thick for headspace. Tough to anneal just the neck.

How do your plated bullets fit the bore? How much neck tension does your expander ball provide? Is the case sizing the bullet?I have not seen great benefit in plated bullets,myself.I prefer harder cast.

The competition guys seem to like Montana Gold Bullets.They have a website.
 
For accurate 9mm Luger guns do a search for David Sams and Jerry Keffer. They've built guns that shoot groups in the 1" range at 50 yards, and you might be able to find some of their data there as well. And check the Bullseye website for data, too: http://www.bullseyeforum.net/
http://www.samscustomgunworksusa.com/

Good powders for 9mm include Power Pistol, Silhouette, #7, N330, N340. Jacketed bullets get the best accuracy, and recommended ones are: Zero 115 and 125 conical JHP, Hornady 115 HAP, XTP, 125 HAP, 147 XTP. My 9mm likes the 125 HAPs, and several 115 JHP. It has shot a Zero 115 JHP (conical) powered with 5.0 gr Silhouette into less than 1" at 25 yards (20 shot group) from a Ransom Rest.

Not all guns, ammo or shooter are up to the task. If you can't get great accuracy, it's not because the cartridge is not capable. It has proven that it is.

9mm ammo reviews
https://www.1911addicts.com/threads/9mm-115-grain-match-and-duty-ammo-accuracy-test.33938/
http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/how-accurate-is-9mm-luger-match-ammo/
 
Hello Brutus, well you're in for some fun shooting and reloading the 38 Super. I've had multiple 38 Super Colts,Kimbers,and one STI, and have been reloading the Super since the '70s. Even did a little experimenting with Col. Cooper's "Super 9" (.223 cases trimmed to .900") back in he day. The Super is an easy cartridge to work with, whether loading low velocity plinking/target type ammunition or more energetic loads. I admit that most of my loading has been the more energetic stuff, or why bother? 9MM performance easily overlaps 38 Super, and is available everywhere at reasonable prices, in countless variations, etc. I no longer use the Remington 1 1/2 primers and prefer the CCI 500, or sometimes small rifle primers, for loading the Super and other higher pressure cartridges,i.e.,38 Super, 9MM, 38 Super Comp, 9X23 Winchester,etc. Some of the powders I've used are Unique, Herco, Power Pistol,Winchester 571,Blue Dot, AA-7 and AA-9. I've come to prefer the Accurate Arms powders because they flow through powder measures like water, which allows for very consistent loads. For the most energetic 38 Super loads, AA-9 has worked best for me. FWIW, I've not purchased any 38 Super cases for reloading for several years now, preferring the near-rimless Starline 38 Super Comp cases. As to shell holders, I've just used the same ones,whether RCBS or Dillon, for 9MM, 38 Super, 38 Super Comp and 9X23 Winchester. Enjoy your new Super.
 
Having a heck of a time getting this project launched. First paperwork delays and the holiday delayed shipment, hopefully get it today. Then yesterday when I finally got some time to reload I discovered my brand new RCBS dies are sizing the cases undersize and leaving a distinct ring around the case about 7/16 from the rim. A call to RCBS was placed and the tech thinks the carbide insert was pressed in backwards. :eek: At any rate I'm dead in the water until the new dies show up probably Monday or Tuesday. By the way RCBS is a great company to work with. Wish Kimber would adapt their customer service philosophy. :rolleyes:
 
Talk about great customer service, got home today and there were two packages waiting for me one contained a new carbide sizing die and the other a complete new 3 die set. 45 years I've been dealing with RCBS, never had a problem with any of their equipment except for decapping pins. Probably have about two dozen rifle, pistol dies and I'm still using the same rock chucker press. :D
 
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