Aguila Blanca
Staff
For those who reload, there is a rimless version of the .38 Super called, IIRC, .38 Super Comp. Available from Starline.James K said:
.38 Super a choice for self-defense?
- Thread starter gmarr
- Start date
While not mainstream ammo, from buffalo bore's website:
➤ 6 inch Ruger GP 100
a. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1707 fps
The only real issue with 38 super is the cost of ammo if you do not reload. 9mm +p is a lot cheaper and almost as powerful. That said, I still like 38 Super a lot.
Jim
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Nothing wrong with .38 super...../ ....but it isn't more popular for defense because of ammo cost....and ammo availability -- and folks don't want to spend the money...in my view.
It's a niche caliber ...and as others explained - rules changed a little for competition shooters, so they moved on to other options they liked better.
There are a lot of niche calibers out there .... .357 sig, .38 super , .41 mag, 10mm ( maybe even .40 s&w )...nothing wrong with any of them....but they're not going to be more popular than 9mm, .45 acp or .357 mag .... in my view.
It's a niche caliber ...and as others explained - rules changed a little for competition shooters, so they moved on to other options they liked better.
There are a lot of niche calibers out there .... .357 sig, .38 super , .41 mag, 10mm ( maybe even .40 s&w )...nothing wrong with any of them....but they're not going to be more popular than 9mm, .45 acp or .357 mag .... in my view.
Some reasonable explanations have already been posted here as to why the Super 38 is not more popular. I admit I'm still a fan though and have owned, reloaded for and chronographed several 38 Super pistols and a bunch of hand loaded and factory ammo since the '70s. Unfortunately, the Super has not been the recipient of major ammunition manufacturer's efforts to develop state of the art Duty/SD type ammunition as the 9MM, .40 S&W, .45 ACP calibers,etc. have been. Another issue might be that major manufacturer's Super ammo is not loaded to velocity levels safely attainable. For instance I have tested Winchester's 125 grain Silvertip in several different pistols with 5" barrels. I guess this would be considered an SD type factory load. Advertised at 1240 FPS, it averaged 1160 to 1175 FPS in my tests. Perhaps major manufacturer's are concerned their factory ammo might be used in some old 38 ACP pistol. The 38S 125 Silvertip velocity is less than 9MM Winchester and IMI 124 grain NATO, and most 9MM 124 grain +P in 5" barrels. It gets even more interesting when the Super is compared to 9MM +P+. Where the Super shines IMHO is with the heavier 147 grain bullets. Within my humble experience 1200 FPS, closer to 1250 FPS actually, is easily and safely attainable with the Super using 147 grain bullets. I still own and operate a couple of Supers for no reason I can really defend. I just enjoy reloading for and shooting this old caliber.........ymmv
Attachments
The Super is a great self defense round, always has been, and quality SD ammo is readily available. Yes, the 9mm is far more popular but that doesn't take away from the effectiveness and power of the Super. Sure, you can approach Super velocities with 115gr +P+ 9mm but the pushes 124-135gr bullets to 1250-1350 without resorting to +P+ pressures, and, with the same 115gr projectile the Super is hitting 1450fps. My preferred carry round is Georgia Arms 124gr GDHP at 1350fps, it's accurate, reliable, and hits hard.
I prefer 1911s and the Super is terrific out of that platform. Plus, it's easy to set your gun up with a spare 9mm barrel for cheap practice. My Colt Super is set up with 9mm and 9x23 Winchester barrels (125gr bullet @ 1450fps, now your talking about an 11 shot .357mag).
If you want a Super, go for it. Ammo is readily available and comparable in price to .45ACP.
My Colt Super-
I prefer 1911s and the Super is terrific out of that platform. Plus, it's easy to set your gun up with a spare 9mm barrel for cheap practice. My Colt Super is set up with 9mm and 9x23 Winchester barrels (125gr bullet @ 1450fps, now your talking about an 11 shot .357mag).
If you want a Super, go for it. Ammo is readily available and comparable in price to .45ACP.
My Colt Super-
Maybe you don't, but a lot of other people feel they do. And, apparently so do ammo makers, because the "lowly 9mm" has been jacked up in pressure and velocity once (+p) and then AGAIN (+p+). IF it was all you need, why the increase???
Original 9mm load was a 124gr FMJ at 1050fps (4"barrel).
The improved load, carried into battle in WW I was a 115gr at 1150fps.
Where are we today?? and WHY are we there? It seems to me that the increase in 9mm was to improve effectiveness. If the original was effective enough, why increase?? SO, it seems clear that the standard 9mm WASN"T effective enough for many people.
The hot 9mm rounds today are .38Super performance, in a smaller package. If you jack up .38Super by the same percentage, you will see a corresponding increase in its performance as well.
I’m not against more fire-power but the question was why it isn’t more popular, not what is a better round.
and really, you don’t need more than a regular 9mm, you don’t need to jack it up to +P+ either. Its been around a long time and has no less track record than 40 or 45 or any other calliber jacked up or not. If it wasn’t a proven manstopper, it would not have been used in military and police since WWI.
The 38 Super is a very good round for self defense and small game.
Here is a link to the best reference site for the 38 Super on the web:
http://38super.net/
If you go here...
http://www.midwayusa.com/38-super/br?cid=21664
and here...
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php/cName/pistol-ammo-38-super-auto
you can see some of the commercial ammo available for the 38 Super. If you plan ahead it's not hard to find ammo.
It was said earlier that most commercial ammo is downloaded to 9mm velocities for the 38 Super and this is true (about 1100 fps with a 130 gr. pill). Makes for decent practice stuff. It's also true that Wilson Combat, Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, Cor-Bon and a couple of others load the round closer to it's full potential (they run about 1350 fps with a 125 gr. jhp).
1350 fps from the 5" barrel of a 1911 is about what the 125 gr. .357 magnum gets from a 4" revolver barrel, if it actually gets that. So it ain't a bad round for self defense.
On the original question of why it isn't more popular...that's an essay in itself as it takes up the history of handgunning in the U.S. But real briefly...
In 1898 Colt wanted a contract with the U.S. military for a semi automatic pistol. So they got Browning to develop one and a round for it. As the Army was using a 38 caliber revolver round at the time JMB developed a 38 acp round for the new gun which was the Model 1900 Military. It was a semi rimmed cartridge. The gun was his first design to use two parallel links to allow the barrel to tilt some. The round fired a 130 gr. jacketed bullet at 1300 fps. It was the most powerful semi automatic pistol in existence by ft. pds of energy. A title it held till the 10mm came along.
The round was too powerful for the design and soon battered the slide badly and broke a few parts in the gun. So the round was down loaded to 1100fps. In 1928 Colt chambered the round in the 1911 and boosted the velocity back up to 1300 fps. The gun was called the Colt Super 38. Before long folks took to calling the round 38 Super.
Long story short...law enforcement in the U.S. used revolvers back then and the use of the 1911 in 45acp was very limited in law enforcement circles. Less so the 38 Super. The U. S. was a nation of wheelgunners till the 1970s-1980s. Until after WWII no major American manufacturer other than Colt produced a semi pistol in a major service caliber.
The 38 Super was used a little by the OSS during WWII in Europe. Thailand, Indonesia and a few other places adopted it as a military round. It was popular in Mexico and Latin America where both the 9mm and 45acp were banned from civilian use as military rounds. Still is legendary in Mexico.
There was virtually no jhp ammo made for semi-automatic pistols till the late 1970s in the U.S. so the defensive advantage of ammo was with revolver rounds.
The 38 Super led a quiet existence till the 1980s when a pistol shooter brought a 1911 to an IPSC match loaded with 38 Super in a compensated gun. They made major easily and cleaned everyones clock with a gun with so little recoil that recovery time was cut to about nill. The 38Super came to rule in that roost and did so till the mid 1990s or so when they lowered the qualifications of what made major. 38 Super still has a powerful presence in the Bianchi Cup.
Anyway 38 Super is a niche round, a legendary niche round for those who know, but niche.
You get 38 Super because you like how it does what it does. It doesn't do things other rounds don't. It's how it does it that is interesting.
tipoc
Here is a link to the best reference site for the 38 Super on the web:
http://38super.net/
If you go here...
http://www.midwayusa.com/38-super/br?cid=21664
and here...
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php/cName/pistol-ammo-38-super-auto
you can see some of the commercial ammo available for the 38 Super. If you plan ahead it's not hard to find ammo.
It was said earlier that most commercial ammo is downloaded to 9mm velocities for the 38 Super and this is true (about 1100 fps with a 130 gr. pill). Makes for decent practice stuff. It's also true that Wilson Combat, Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, Cor-Bon and a couple of others load the round closer to it's full potential (they run about 1350 fps with a 125 gr. jhp).
1350 fps from the 5" barrel of a 1911 is about what the 125 gr. .357 magnum gets from a 4" revolver barrel, if it actually gets that. So it ain't a bad round for self defense.
On the original question of why it isn't more popular...that's an essay in itself as it takes up the history of handgunning in the U.S. But real briefly...
In 1898 Colt wanted a contract with the U.S. military for a semi automatic pistol. So they got Browning to develop one and a round for it. As the Army was using a 38 caliber revolver round at the time JMB developed a 38 acp round for the new gun which was the Model 1900 Military. It was a semi rimmed cartridge. The gun was his first design to use two parallel links to allow the barrel to tilt some. The round fired a 130 gr. jacketed bullet at 1300 fps. It was the most powerful semi automatic pistol in existence by ft. pds of energy. A title it held till the 10mm came along.
The round was too powerful for the design and soon battered the slide badly and broke a few parts in the gun. So the round was down loaded to 1100fps. In 1928 Colt chambered the round in the 1911 and boosted the velocity back up to 1300 fps. The gun was called the Colt Super 38. Before long folks took to calling the round 38 Super.
Long story short...law enforcement in the U.S. used revolvers back then and the use of the 1911 in 45acp was very limited in law enforcement circles. Less so the 38 Super. The U. S. was a nation of wheelgunners till the 1970s-1980s. Until after WWII no major American manufacturer other than Colt produced a semi pistol in a major service caliber.
The 38 Super was used a little by the OSS during WWII in Europe. Thailand, Indonesia and a few other places adopted it as a military round. It was popular in Mexico and Latin America where both the 9mm and 45acp were banned from civilian use as military rounds. Still is legendary in Mexico.
There was virtually no jhp ammo made for semi-automatic pistols till the late 1970s in the U.S. so the defensive advantage of ammo was with revolver rounds.
The 38 Super led a quiet existence till the 1980s when a pistol shooter brought a 1911 to an IPSC match loaded with 38 Super in a compensated gun. They made major easily and cleaned everyones clock with a gun with so little recoil that recovery time was cut to about nill. The 38Super came to rule in that roost and did so till the mid 1990s or so when they lowered the qualifications of what made major. 38 Super still has a powerful presence in the Bianchi Cup.
Anyway 38 Super is a niche round, a legendary niche round for those who know, but niche.
You get 38 Super because you like how it does what it does. It doesn't do things other rounds don't. It's how it does it that is interesting.
tipoc
Model12Win
Moderator
The .38 Super does have a much better knock down power factor over the 9mm, but the 9mm holds more rounds in general.
Depends on the gun. They are the same external diameter so the same number of rounds can fit in either. The Super will take any bullet made for the 9mm or the 38 Spl./357 Mag (in most cases). It's the length that's different. The 45 acp is the same length as the 38 Super.
In practice there are many, many more double stack guns in 9mm than in 38 Super. But, like I said, you don't get the 38 Super because it's "better" than the 9mm, you get it because you like it, because you like how it does what it does.
It's a much smoother shooter, to me, than the 9mm +P+ or +P, the 40 S&W or 357 Sig. This is because the Super operates at a lower pressure. This latter extends both gun/barrel life and case life.
There is no point in getting the Super rather than the 9mm or the 45 acp or any other round. Get it in addition to. To work with it and learn it. It's a great round by itself.
tipoc
springer99
New member
The 38Super is definitely what I'd call a boutique round, in that, in order to really benefit from it's advantages over 9mm, you need to reload. It's a great cartridge that will handle anything from 90 to 160 pills, at a very respectable velocity and energy. Even more than typical 45ACP in some cases and close to some 357mag. loads.
I find that the lighter recoil is more manageable for me than shooting 45ACP and I do like, in a 1911 platform, the advantage of having 10 in the tank compared to 7-8 vs. 45ACP. I like to think of it as "what every 9mm would want to be when it grows up".
I find that the lighter recoil is more manageable for me than shooting 45ACP and I do like, in a 1911 platform, the advantage of having 10 in the tank compared to 7-8 vs. 45ACP. I like to think of it as "what every 9mm would want to be when it grows up".
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g.willikers
New member
Energy numbers don't necessarily translate to real world effects.
Check out this youtube video on the myth of knockdown power of small arms:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgZPusyLeMA
Years ago, the folks from Second Chance body armor did a short film on the so called knockdown power of guns up to the power of the M1.
Nobody actually was bowled over, even when standing on one leg like a flamingo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5f1Fo4r4_I
I agree ....knock down power is just a myth....but we perpetuated it for a long time back in the 60's thru the 90's probably...and we believed it too...
A lot of professional instructors these days believe in shot placement over caliber or bullet weight issues...
Sure ammo suppliers ( and gun mfg's ) want you to believe you need to buy something new all the time...different ammo, different gun, different caliber...and I admit, I got sucked into the hype of the .40 S&W 15 yrs ago or so...and I've still got 3 guns in .40 S&W ( Sig 239, Sig 226 & Sig X-Five --- and for awhile I even had a Wilson Combat 1911 ( 5" CQB) in .40S&W.../ but I haven't shot more than 20 boxes of .40 S&W a year, for the last 10 yrs, and while I still love the .45 acp...even I've given in to the idea of shot placement - and speed on follow up shots being the key factor / and today my primary carry gun is a Wilson 1911 (5" gun" in 9mm...).... and 10 + 1 rds is plenty...in my view. I no longer carry a .45 acp...( I will occasionally carry it -- or a revolver in .357 Mag )...but my primary carry gun is a 5" 1911 in 9mm...and with the high quality defensive ammo out there today, its plenty.
A lot of professional instructors these days believe in shot placement over caliber or bullet weight issues...
Sure ammo suppliers ( and gun mfg's ) want you to believe you need to buy something new all the time...different ammo, different gun, different caliber...and I admit, I got sucked into the hype of the .40 S&W 15 yrs ago or so...and I've still got 3 guns in .40 S&W ( Sig 239, Sig 226 & Sig X-Five --- and for awhile I even had a Wilson Combat 1911 ( 5" CQB) in .40S&W.../ but I haven't shot more than 20 boxes of .40 S&W a year, for the last 10 yrs, and while I still love the .45 acp...even I've given in to the idea of shot placement - and speed on follow up shots being the key factor / and today my primary carry gun is a Wilson 1911 (5" gun" in 9mm...).... and 10 + 1 rds is plenty...in my view. I no longer carry a .45 acp...( I will occasionally carry it -- or a revolver in .357 Mag )...but my primary carry gun is a 5" 1911 in 9mm...and with the high quality defensive ammo out there today, its plenty.
Anyone who doesn't think shot placement is THE most important factor should NOT be TEACHING anything about shooting, and possibly not about anything else, either.
Quite simply put, if shot placement (putting the bullet where it needs to go) isn't right, NOTHING else matters very much.
arguments about caliber, energy, penetration, are all moot if the bullet misses the vital spot.