The more I read and look into the .38 Super the more I'm liking it. I have 380, 9's, 40, 45, etc. but no Super. As a defense load a 125 grain JHP at 1250 fps or better seems to me matches 357 mag performance in a more controllable (1911) platform. So why isn't the Super more popular outside of target shooting, and even there?
.38 Super a choice for self-defense?
- Thread starter gmarr
- Start date
9mm +p+ gets up there too. I like the 9x23 a little better because it's a rimless cartridge but it's strictly a hand loader round at this point. EAA witnesses are available in .38 super also. Double stack capacity gives you a lot of firepower but like I said, you can do about as well if you have a 9x19 that handles Underwood +p+ loads.
g.willikers
New member
It's a good round, I used one for many years in a commander.
It kind of fell out of favor partially due to the hassle of feeding in high capacity mags.
The goofy little partial rim didn't allow nearly as many rounds to be stacked up in magazines as other calibers.
When the competition organizations reduced the major scoring power factor, other calibers kind of took over.
If you stay with standard round mags, .38Super will serve you well.
It kind of fell out of favor partially due to the hassle of feeding in high capacity mags.
The goofy little partial rim didn't allow nearly as many rounds to be stacked up in magazines as other calibers.
When the competition organizations reduced the major scoring power factor, other calibers kind of took over.
If you stay with standard round mags, .38Super will serve you well.
carguychris
New member
9x19mm hits almost as hard but feeds more easily in a double-stack magazine because the cases are rimless, and fits in a smaller grip frame because the cartridges are shorter.gmarr said:
Another way to look at it is that 9mm is a de facto worldwide auto pistol standard; another 9mm cartridge has to offer a substantial improvement for people to use it instead. .38 Super (and .357 SIG) don't offer that advantage, except in niches like law enforcement applications where intermediate barrier penetration is important, and in action shooting sports where power factor is important.
NoSecondBest
New member
Anyone who thinks a 9mm is "comparable" to the 38Super is in fantasy land. The 38Super will launch a bullet a couple of hundred feet per second faster than a 9mm and will handle heavier bullets much better than the 9mm. I own both and shoot both. There is no comparison. Get out your loading manuals and do some research. The 38Super fell out of favor due to lowering the power factor for some shooting competitions. Brass is much easier to get for the 9mm. Nothing wrong with the 9mm, I like the round, but it's not apples to apples here....not by a long shot.
Bill DeShivs
New member
The Super also feeds extremely well in 1911-type pistols.
Well, yes and no. The .38 super listed by the OP as a great round was 125 grains moving at 1250 or better. Underwood, and probably a couple other boutique ammo makers have a 9x19 +p+ that runs a 124 grain bullet at 1300 FPS. The 9x23 can be hotrodded well beyond that but the .38 super is more limited being a lower pressure casing. .38 super is a nice round in a single stack 1911 but if you want a smaller grip and a double stack to boot you don't loose anything significant if you have a good strong 9x19 capable of +P+ rounds.
testuser79
New member
I used to shoot a lot of .38 Super and it certainly has some merit, especially in something like the Witness pistols, since the mag capacity is so high.
It's biggest advantage over 9mm is the ability for a reloader to develop 147 grain bullets at supersonic speeds with little effort, not uncommon to see 1150 fps. It also has a lot more powder to work a comp or ports. It's also a decent choice in revolvers.
In the end, I decided to go with 10mm in larger pistol frames due to the greater versatility.
It's biggest advantage over 9mm is the ability for a reloader to develop 147 grain bullets at supersonic speeds with little effort, not uncommon to see 1150 fps. It also has a lot more powder to work a comp or ports. It's also a decent choice in revolvers.
In the end, I decided to go with 10mm in larger pistol frames due to the greater versatility.
The real "issue" with the .38 Super, and all the 9x23 cartridges, is that you need a 1911 or other large-frame pistol to accommodate it. You can load 9mm +P+ in a relatively compact pistol and get similar ballistics.
For a few decades, USPSA/IPSC competitors were loading 28-30 rounds of .38 Super in their Open division blasters.
And, 10-round single stack .38 Super magazines were available years before 10-round 9mm magazines.
In a 1911, I'll take the semi-rim of the Super in preference to using the shorter 9mm Luger, as the gun was designed around a cartridge of the Super's length.
For a few decades, USPSA/IPSC competitors were loading 28-30 rounds of .38 Super in their Open division blasters.
And, 10-round single stack .38 Super magazines were available years before 10-round 9mm magazines.
In a 1911, I'll take the semi-rim of the Super in preference to using the shorter 9mm Luger, as the gun was designed around a cartridge of the Super's length.
Current factory 38 Super ammo is loaded down to the old 38 ACP level on advice of counsel so the ammo maker isn't sued when some dolt puts Supers in his old Colt 38 ACP. This means factory ammo is now nowhere near full potential for the 38 Super. The original load was a 130 FMJ at nearly 1300 FPS. Last box of Winchester factory ammo I checked ran about 1150.
With a good JHP bullet and loaded to full power the Super rivals the 357 Magnum factory loads. I have packed a Super at times but not with factory ammo. I load 115 JHPs to 1,400 FPS and they work fine through my guns. They do bark. Some balk at carrying your own loads for SD and they make a good argument. Where I live the atmosphere is very pro gun and I doubt anyone would make an issue of it in an otherwise justified shooting.
There may be some specialty outfits selling good 38 Super ammo for SD but I am unaware of them.
I have two Supers, an RIA and a Series '70 Colt. The latter shoots just fine...
With a good JHP bullet and loaded to full power the Super rivals the 357 Magnum factory loads. I have packed a Super at times but not with factory ammo. I load 115 JHPs to 1,400 FPS and they work fine through my guns. They do bark. Some balk at carrying your own loads for SD and they make a good argument. Where I live the atmosphere is very pro gun and I doubt anyone would make an issue of it in an otherwise justified shooting.
There may be some specialty outfits selling good 38 Super ammo for SD but I am unaware of them.
I have two Supers, an RIA and a Series '70 Colt. The latter shoots just fine...
g.willikers
New member
It was always fun to see those folks run a 32 round stage.
One of our stage designers was sadistic that way.
We had a local shooter who was the only guy in the country, apparently, with mags that held one more round than anyone else's, he was MD for Sectional or Area championship, and surprise, surprise, every stage allowed him to take advantage of his extra round; I think USPSA banned MDs from shooting their own matches, after that?
OP, you don't know how powerful the 357mag is, the 38super does not approach it. You're talking 1250 fps vs 1400 - 1700 fps for a 125 grain bullet.
The 357sig is not even close so you want 357mag in a semi-auto pistol? Get a 9mm Dillon (9x25). That's a 10mm necked down to 9mm.
Heck you're better off with a 10mm if you want power. An Underwood 10mm 135 grain bullet will do 1700 fps.
The 357sig is not even close so you want 357mag in a semi-auto pistol? Get a 9mm Dillon (9x25). That's a 10mm necked down to 9mm.
Heck you're better off with a 10mm if you want power. An Underwood 10mm 135 grain bullet will do 1700 fps.
The "bullet choices" for either are the same. If you mean that there are more "cartridge" choices your statement may have merit. Inasmuch as I handload for the .38 Super (and everything else I own), the available commercial loadings for the .38 Super are of no interest to me, or anyone else who handloads.
NoSecondBest
New member
If you're not hand loading for any of these calibers, you're not going to get your best performance. Also, unless you're born rich you're not going to be much of a handgun shooter based on the limited number of rounds you'll be able to purchase. Talking about boutique rounds simply sounds silly. They're for people who carry a gun but hardly ever shoot it. Hand loading allows you to load those rounds and shoot the gun a whole lot more.
The .38 ACP/.38 Super came about originally because JMB wanted a cartridge that would feed and work better in an auto pistol than the rounds he started with, which were revolver rounds. He finally got the rim small enough for the round to feed and called it success. Thinking only of case support on the rim, he never thought of supporting the case on its mouth, and his early cartridges (.25 ACP, .32 ACP, and .38 ACP) all were designed with small rims to provide case support. Luger and others proved that a rim was not needed, but by that time, JMB was committed and the three ACP cartridges had been long in production. (When the light dawned with the .45 ACP and .380 ACP, it was too late to change the older rounds.)
There have been better auto pistol rounds in the .38/9mm range (9mm Steyr has a perfectly straight case with easy feed and easy extraction), but the old .38 ACP/Super still hangs on in the U.S. for no reason other than that Colt makes pistols in that caliber, though it now usually is supported on the case mouth, not the rim.
Jim
There have been better auto pistol rounds in the .38/9mm range (9mm Steyr has a perfectly straight case with easy feed and easy extraction), but the old .38 ACP/Super still hangs on in the U.S. for no reason other than that Colt makes pistols in that caliber, though it now usually is supported on the case mouth, not the rim.
Jim
claydoctor
New member
Article on the .38 super in August issue of Guns and Ammo which came in today's mail .