If you come across a S&W 940, dont waste your money. I had two, one that I bought, that went back in less than 200 rounds, was repaired and returned, and then took a dump a second time, was sent back and came back a new gun with the same serial number and totally different lettering.(they swore it was the same gun) It too took a dump within 200 rounds and was sent back. I told them I didnt want it back in 9mm and they sent me one in .38. I think the 9mm was to hot for the design. The firing pin/striker on both guns broke and tied the gun up. You could not fire it or unload it. I had to take the side plate off on both and take them apart just to get the gun empty. I wouldnt mind picking another revolver in 9mm, but I would go the Ruger or larger framed S&W route.
38 Special vs. 9mm?
- Thread starter Jelly
- Start date
Ballistics aside,one of the 9MM advantages is a faster reload.For years I have heard from Auto types how fragile moon clips are- such is not the case. However you still have reload those clips like a mag and that can be a thumb buster for some. I know people with 9MM pistols,carbines,and snubs because they like the round and it works for them. The reverse is I have a 38 4 inch, 357 carbine,and 38 snub because it works for me. It is just a matter of choice.
Hi Jelly,
I'm completly sold on a .357 mag. now. They shoot from "toy" 38 loads up to powerhouse .357. I was considering 9mm, at one time, for the price. It's almost impossible to find ammo cheaper than the 9mm stuff unless you reload. Practice alot with either cartrige and I thik you'll do o.k. in the end.
I'm completly sold on a .357 mag. now. They shoot from "toy" 38 loads up to powerhouse .357. I was considering 9mm, at one time, for the price. It's almost impossible to find ammo cheaper than the 9mm stuff unless you reload. Practice alot with either cartrige and I thik you'll do o.k. in the end.
Okay guys, Jelly's question was .38 vs. 9mm. We should all know that the .357 delivers higher kinetic energy and it can't be beat. It's funny to watch guy's at the range shooting .357 Magnum in ultra lite revolvers. Haven't seen many get very far. Smith 65 3" is perfect for me and I also shoot a 3" SP-101 .357. I don't need amything smaller or lighter, but I shoot enough full house magnum to use a DA trigger effectively.
A 124 gr. +P 9mm load from several manufacturers (i.e. Black Hills with a Gold Dot bullet) is capable of 1275 FPS or better. At 1275, that's 450 (447.5) Ft/lbs of energy for those of you that don't calculate energy. Show me a .38 Special with this performance level of power. No, it's not a magnum! But, for practicle purposes, it's not that big a drop off. The Cor-Bon that Matthew mentioned with the X-bullet, should be a fine one, but at 1150 FPS, it's developing 323 Ft/lbs. Factory ADVERTISED spec for most 125 gr. JHP .357 Magnum loads is 1400 FPS from a 4" barrel, 544 Ft/lbs and usually the loads from Win, Rem, and Federal are more likely to clock around 1350 (506 Ft/lbs) in real guns and for Human Targets, 500 Ft/lbs +/- 50 is considered ideal when you are using a reliably expanding JHP! If you use a .38 Special for defense, I will be the last person to tell you it won't save your life, but in 3" barreled 547's and 9mm SP-101's, that when you include cylinder length are actually longer than a 4" pistol barrel, they're fine combat revolvers!
A 124 gr. +P 9mm load from several manufacturers (i.e. Black Hills with a Gold Dot bullet) is capable of 1275 FPS or better. At 1275, that's 450 (447.5) Ft/lbs of energy for those of you that don't calculate energy. Show me a .38 Special with this performance level of power. No, it's not a magnum! But, for practicle purposes, it's not that big a drop off. The Cor-Bon that Matthew mentioned with the X-bullet, should be a fine one, but at 1150 FPS, it's developing 323 Ft/lbs. Factory ADVERTISED spec for most 125 gr. JHP .357 Magnum loads is 1400 FPS from a 4" barrel, 544 Ft/lbs and usually the loads from Win, Rem, and Federal are more likely to clock around 1350 (506 Ft/lbs) in real guns and for Human Targets, 500 Ft/lbs +/- 50 is considered ideal when you are using a reliably expanding JHP! If you use a .38 Special for defense, I will be the last person to tell you it won't save your life, but in 3" barreled 547's and 9mm SP-101's, that when you include cylinder length are actually longer than a 4" pistol barrel, they're fine combat revolvers!
Boss Spearman
New member
I don't own any semis, only revolvers, so it's definitely .38 special for me.
Ballistics are not the hole (pun intended!) story - Don't forget to examine the bullet design of these rounds - ammo made to shoot out of revolver has a nice BIG opening at the business end, unlike most 9mm which are designed to cycle reliably in a semi. One of the reasons why the 125gr .357 is so successful. I imagine it is similiar for a good .38.
why pick just one?
I like both the 38 revolver and the 9mm pistol. I lean a slight degree to the 9mm because of these two reasons. Ammunition price is on general terms 1/3 lower priced than 38's. That alone means Rojoe will practice a little more for a little less. I must admit the ballistic data tends to nudge me towards 9mm also. That said I trust the 38 to stop an attack close quarters just as the 9mm would. Just my .02 cents worth. I can see no reason to try to pick it apart because both are fine for what we use them for.
I like both the 38 revolver and the 9mm pistol. I lean a slight degree to the 9mm because of these two reasons. Ammunition price is on general terms 1/3 lower priced than 38's. That alone means Rojoe will practice a little more for a little less. I must admit the ballistic data tends to nudge me towards 9mm also. That said I trust the 38 to stop an attack close quarters just as the 9mm would. Just my .02 cents worth. I can see no reason to try to pick it apart because both are fine for what we use them for.
Okay, but let's keep one thing in mind. Many .38 loads use the same identical bullet as a company's .357 magnum version. The bullet is designed for .357 Mag velocity. Nothin' to pick apart here, it's a no brainer.
If you use the .38 for defense, load up with something made to specifically work at .38 Sp. velocity, Like the +P Remington Golden Saber or a load like Matthew mentioned with the Cor-Bon 110 gr. X that is a pure copper with no lead core. BTW, Cor-Bons .38 Special 115 gr. +P+ uses a 9mm bullet. The drop-off in performance between a 4" 9mm pistol barrel and a 3" revolver in 9mm is so slight that it's not an issue and all 124 gr. 9mm JHP is made to perform at that specific velocity.
If you use the .38 for defense, load up with something made to specifically work at .38 Sp. velocity, Like the +P Remington Golden Saber or a load like Matthew mentioned with the Cor-Bon 110 gr. X that is a pure copper with no lead core. BTW, Cor-Bons .38 Special 115 gr. +P+ uses a 9mm bullet. The drop-off in performance between a 4" 9mm pistol barrel and a 3" revolver in 9mm is so slight that it's not an issue and all 124 gr. 9mm JHP is made to perform at that specific velocity.
Person of Interest
New member
If restricted to factory loads the 9MM Parabellum is loaded to higher pressures, higher velocities, and will out perform the .38 Special. If loading your own, the .38 can be loaded to higher velocity than the 9MM with similar bullet weights but you must be willing to exceed +P pressures. I am in a S&W or Colt with a steel frame. My carry load in the .38 Special is a 125 JHP at 1250 FPS. No problem from J and K frame Smiths. Even fired a few through a beat up old Taurus once. Nothing.
The post that refers that people have been shot with 38 multiple times and would not die most likely comes from the old 158GR roundnose also know as the widowmaker. It was called widowmaker because of it's poor stopping power. This rounds legacy is what gives the 38 a poor reputation in some circles. However when the 158 Nyclad SWCHP came out we have the first wonder cartridge with reasonble stopping power.Remember 9MM has a poor rep with FMJs.Just ask any 1911 owner.
Person of Interest, there are factory 124 gr. JHP +P 9mm loads that are faster than your 125 gr. handload by about 25 FPS. Speaking of handloads, you might want to look at some +P 9mm load data or pre-90's reloading manuals when the 9mm was loaded to 35,700 CUP which is very similar to the present +P pressure of 38,500 PSI. With proper powder selection and appropriate OAL, a 124 gr. 9mm +P can be loaded to 1300 FPS in a 4" barrel. 115's, slightly above 1400 FPS. It is advisable to know exactly what your doing if you try this or hotrodding the .38 Special.
Person of Interest
New member
I have taken the .38 Special higher than I mentioned. I have surpassed 1400 FPS and these seemed to be no problem in a Model 10. Cases fell freely from the chambers and the primers looked fine. Given the .38 Special's larger case capacity, I think it will always have more potential than the 9MM as long as one is willing to go beyond factory levels, which are kept low due to liability concerns regarding the many old and cheap guns in this caliber. Of course, wear and tear on the gun becomes an issue with these warm loads if used extensively, which I do not. I also avoid alloy frames.
I agree that care should be taken when reloading. I've been doing it for about 30 years, now, and I think I have a pretty good idea of what I'm doing.
I agree that care should be taken when reloading. I've been doing it for about 30 years, now, and I think I have a pretty good idea of what I'm doing.
The Body Bagger
New member
I heard there was a women in New Orleans who could read people's future.......Psst just a little advice, just about every round out there including 12ga shotguns have had failure to kills.....just food for thought before you end up posting any more statements like that.
POI, so, let me get this right. No pressure issues with your loads that are well, lets say ++P++, and you have chronographed these loads right? I would really like to know what .38 you are firing these in!
Since most of the shooters are unable to purchase anything like what you are claiming in a relevent discussion of .38 vs 9mm what are you saying? Just keep going higher in velocity and pressure until you prove your point. A very strong .38 may take some of this, but most of them won't. A much better solution would be a .357 magnum rather than trying to make the .38Sp. something it was never designed to be. There is no reloading data to support your claims, and this is way beyond what Skeeter Skelton had in mind with his +P+ loads. Shoot them in a .357, OK! But if you are shooting the loads you are describing in anything less than a very large framed revolver, which most companies no longer chamber in .38, your flirting with disaster. If you come back with the 30 year statement, can I just suggest that you pose this load in the reloading section with real world data?
Since most of the shooters are unable to purchase anything like what you are claiming in a relevent discussion of .38 vs 9mm what are you saying? Just keep going higher in velocity and pressure until you prove your point. A very strong .38 may take some of this, but most of them won't. A much better solution would be a .357 magnum rather than trying to make the .38Sp. something it was never designed to be. There is no reloading data to support your claims, and this is way beyond what Skeeter Skelton had in mind with his +P+ loads. Shoot them in a .357, OK! But if you are shooting the loads you are describing in anything less than a very large framed revolver, which most companies no longer chamber in .38, your flirting with disaster. If you come back with the 30 year statement, can I just suggest that you pose this load in the reloading section with real world data?
Person of Interest
New member
Yes, I chronograph all of my loads. I have attained 1410 FPS from a 4" S&W Model 10 made in the early 1970s. As I said, the cases fell from the chambers and the primers were slightly flattened but not too bad. The biggest problem was that with fixed sights this load shot way low. Higher velocity loads usually hit low, and without adjustable sights this load was impractical unless I wanted to shorten the front sight which I didn't.
I have .357 Magnums but I suspect that you don't want to hear how I load them given your reaction to my .38 Special loads. All of my guns are good quality (Colts and S&Ws with steel frames), in good condition, and my loads were developed carefully. I also do not shoot them a whole lot. You seem to disapprove, and that's fine. I don't advise anyone to do the same as I, but after years of study I have concluded that factory .38 Special ammo, even the much feared +P, is loaded well below where it could be out of concern that the ammo company will be sued by the owner of a cheap, Spanish pistol blown up with modern ammo.
I have .357 Magnums but I suspect that you don't want to hear how I load them given your reaction to my .38 Special loads. All of my guns are good quality (Colts and S&Ws with steel frames), in good condition, and my loads were developed carefully. I also do not shoot them a whole lot. You seem to disapprove, and that's fine. I don't advise anyone to do the same as I, but after years of study I have concluded that factory .38 Special ammo, even the much feared +P, is loaded well below where it could be out of concern that the ammo company will be sued by the owner of a cheap, Spanish pistol blown up with modern ammo.
P_o_I,
You're correct about being able to safely overload a good quality, strong .38Special revolver--and that shouldn't surprise anyone since that's basically how the .357 was developed.
However, the relevance of such information to this thread is questionable. Practically any cartridge can be overloaded in a strong gun to increase performance, but that is not really pertinent when comparing cartridges since most people don't reload, and most people who reload try not to overload.
You're correct about being able to safely overload a good quality, strong .38Special revolver--and that shouldn't surprise anyone since that's basically how the .357 was developed.
However, the relevance of such information to this thread is questionable. Practically any cartridge can be overloaded in a strong gun to increase performance, but that is not really pertinent when comparing cartridges since most people don't reload, and most people who reload try not to overload.
Boss Spearman
New member
I've heard stories about people being shot multiple times from practically every handgun caliber, including .45acp, and they didn't die. So those aren't really a good way to judge.
Most of the guys at my range are in LE or involved with LE somehow. I made a comment about the .38 special being a wimpy round last year and they laughed. They said that round will kill someone just the same as any other.
Most of the guys at my range are in LE or involved with LE somehow. I made a comment about the .38 special being a wimpy round last year and they laughed. They said that round will kill someone just the same as any other.
I believe the start of this was to compare 9MM and 38SPL factory loads not handloads.And lets not forget the pleasure factor.One thing I hate about autos or 9MM revolvers is you have to stop every so often and break your thumb reloading mags or moon clips.And I found using reloading tools to be a pain also. No such problem with 38s,you just eject em and drop fresh ones in.I can plink all day like this.As for people not dying from multiple hits, Carlos Hathcock Marine sniper hit a target eight times with 30.06 before dropping him.The only factor in life that is 100% is death and higher taxes.