.38 Special as good as .45ACP?

F

FUD

Moderator
Just read an article by Massad Ayoob that both Marshall & Sanow and
The Facklerites agree that 158gr. all-lead .38 Special +P hollowpoints have the same effectiveness as 230gr .45ACP FMJ (not .45 hollowpoints).

Comments? Personal experiences?

[This message has been edited by FUD (edited August 04, 2000).]
 
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(and runs screaming into the night...)

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.

[This message has been edited by Mike Irwin (edited August 04, 2000).]
 
OK, here's my take.

What we have here is a convergence of:

1. What has been actually seen on the street for many years.

2. What Marshall and Sanow say happens with their 1 shot stop (NOT the same as No. 1)

and

3. Laboratory testing done against a ballistic medium.

The Winchester 158-gr. +P LSWCHP has been seen, for years, as one of the best rounds of its type. The FBI issued that load for years, as did the Washington Metro Police and Virginia State Police.

I have a friend who is a Va. State Trooper who still carries a revolver off duty, and uses this round.

As I've said all along, there's some truth to BOTH arguments.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
Hey Fud,

The guy's name is FackLer, not Facker.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.

[This message has been edited by Mike Irwin (edited August 04, 2000).]
 
Well I can believe that they have about the same level of performance. RN-FMJ is a poor design for "stopping power" [I don't believe in stopping power]. I have read lots of accounts of people in Africa shooting some non dangerous game with a 375 or 458 FMJ because that is what they had in there hands and how it killed them but didn't seem to have much effect.

The 158 +P in 38 is around 890 fps and the 45 /230 fmj is around 830 to 860. The SD for the 38/158=0.175 and the SD for the 45/230=0.162

And you could carry two, maybe even three, 38's for the price of one 1911 [talking basic Springfield/colt/Kimber].

People tend to forget that wound size is not a big factor in how quick someone or something is stopped. So they might bleed a tiny bit more. Unless a major blood vessel is hit you can go for LONG time before blood loss causes problems. The bigger bullet might damage more tissue but again unless in damages something critically important it won't matter much.
 
:) :) :) :) :)
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Just one of the Good Guys

[This message has been edited by Good Guy (edited August 04, 2000).]
 
FUD: Just read the same blurb this a.m. IIRC, Fackler didn't make that assertion, AYOOB did, via the M&S data. What Fackler would agree to, is that the 158gr load in the .38 is the best choice IN THE .38.
 
Interesting, I show .38spec 158gr at 1210 for heavy frame guns in my 1957 Lyman book.

Did some work with 158gr JHCs in that velocity range and the results were quite good.

Used the same 158gr JHC resized to .355 and chrono'd 961 out of a model 39 9mm. Bullet performance excellant, pressure too high for productionn, and feed not reliable.

Big advantage of the .45 is it comes pre expanded.

Comparing expanding .38 to ball .45 like comparing Aardvarks to Flickers. Both rough on ants but do it differently.

Sam...my favorite 9mm is the 9X32R
 
Ball ammo is, in the real world, not as good as people think. And 38 Special 158g LSWC-HP is much better in the real world than people think.

I think the 9 is fine, or my 230g JHP 45 (but NO ball!).

Or big balls -- you decide.

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"All my ammo is factory ammo"
 
VictorLouis, you are correct! I thought that is what I was saying but re-reading it, I now realize that it can be read two different ways. What I meant to say is that after reviewing both sets of data, Massad concluded that both sides independently were of the same opinion. Sorry if I mislead anyone.

Mike, thanks for the typo correction. I'll edit the post. Could you also please edit your's as well because all of those A's are making this trend difficult to read?
 
Hey Good Guy,

Sorry about that. I thought this stupid board would wrap stuff in the window, not off the edge of the screen.

I've fixed it now, so you can stop rolling your eyes...

Stop it...

STOP!

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
Fud, after what you did to Mike I'm reporting you to the ASPCBBB ( American Society fot the Prevention of Cruelty to Big Bullet Believers ).
 
Hey Rusty, actually the ASPCBBB LOVES to torture me. I shoot that rimmed 9mm cartrdge, the .357 Mag. (g!)

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
Then maybe I should mention that I have an 8" nickeled Colt Python Target in 38 spl. only. It won't take 357's and I load it with 158 swclhp Cor-Bon +P+.
 
Mike, the board DOES wrap around but it does so when encountering a space (" ") -- since there were no spaces in that string of A's, it just went on & on & on without wrapping.
 
I notice that it's mentioned that the FBI used to issue the Winchester 158 +P. What is it that they're issuing now?
 
Old Yout -- It's my understanding the Bureau has gone to .40 S&W (specifically including the Glock 23) for their standard issue, although Special Agents are given considerable latitude in their "carry sidearms".

Fud -- Concerning the entire thread, the 158-grain +P .38 Special LSWC-HP is a very effective round. Personally, I'd give the edge to some .45 ACPs (such as the 230 grain Hydra-Shok) regardless of any single set of test results.

Regards.
 
RWK, the article that I was quoting from was comparing the 158-grain +P .38 Special LSWC-HP to a .45 FMJ -- once you get into .45 hollowpoints, I completely agree with you that the .45ACP has a big edge. Regards, FUD.
 
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