.38 special adequete for defense?

In talking about stopping power I always think back to two real world events. One was a man shot in the arm with a .25 and promptly sat down and died. Second is the 18 year old kid who was on Johnny Carson years ago. Got both his arms ripped off by a thrasher and ran inside his home and dialed 911 with a pencil in his mouth. Humans are strange critters who sometimes react in very different ways...
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Yes, adrenaline and endorphines are very strange indeed. It seems, from my observation, that the more drugs someone is on, the more "immune chemicals" their body produces (ie, adrenaline and endorphines.) I think that the amount of shock a person's body can take greatly increases as it's "numbed" by drugs like meth, coke, lsd, etc. And I don't think it even has to have anything to do with drugs so much as how amped up a person is. It's kind of like getting hurt while doing something energetic, like running. If you fall down and skin your knee, it can take awhile to notice it (or the pain, at least.) Conversly, if your doing something fairly static in comparison, like folding a piece of paper, and you get a paper cut, you tend to notice it right away. If a perp has already got a lot of adrenaline flowing, such as that which may be produced from breaking into a house, he's already amped up and probably more inclined to withstand a few shots (at least for awhile, before he either passes out/expires from blood loss or until he actually realises that he's been shot.)
The human body is really strange when it comes to receiving trauma under a hightened sense of anticipation. There are people that have survived skydiving accidents, hitting the ground at an incredibly high rate of speed. And then their are people that die from falling 20 feet, out of a tree or something. In the incidences of skydiving, the person has several seconds to realise and compute whats happening, and the body is probably starting to release huge amounts of endorphines and adrenaline in anticipation for hitting the ground. Whereas, someone who falls out of a tree a comparatively short distance doesn't really have the time to realise what's happening before they smack into the ground. Of course this isn't the rule, but it seems to happen quite a bit more than a lot of people realise. Same with the story about the kid getting his arms ripped off in the thresher, his body was probably producing a huge amount of chemicals and the resultant shock took effect differently.
I'm not a doctor (nor do I play one on TV), and I don't study anatomy, so I could be talking out of my ass. But it's still astounding at what the human body is capable of taking, and short of cutting someone's head off, it just goes to show you that one should never count on any one thing to stop someone immediatly (well, perhaps if you had a WWII German Panzerfaust, but I think the resultant destruction of quarter of a city block might be a bit much.)
 
4thhorseman...you are right, 38spl. is a very good self defense round, 9mm or 38spl with a central nervous system shot you get pretty much the same result, if you don't hit the cns also pretty much the same no matter the caliber, at least when talking "practical" defense calibers, ie. ones that come in a package you can carry and shoot well. I shoot 38spl. better than 357 in snubbies so that is what I carry...tom
 
In 38Spl, you have to pick your particular ammo somewhat carefully. The classic 158grain all-lead unjacketed hollowpoint at +P pressures are known to work very well, esp. from a 4" to 6" tube. Not quite as reliable in expansion from a 2" barrel, but not bad either.

This load is also known as the "158 LSWC-HP +P". If you don't know what you're doing in terms of ammo selection, that's the load to pick. If you DO know what you're doing, there might be one or two loads that beat it - but not by much, and some will debate that.

It works. It works as good as 90% or more of the 9mm loads out there. It even works better than some 357maggies. A lot of people with 357Mag guns who know that any gunfight they get into is going to be indoors carry the 38Spl 158 LSWC-HP +P because they know it works, it's been reliably geekin' bad guys since Eliot Ness' day, and it won't blow their eardrums out indoors or break their wrist if they got stupid and bought one of those crazy "unobtanium" alloy pieces.

38spl lead round nose, on the other hand, is utter crap :).

Talking purely about the caliber is often not going to give you the whole story. It's very common for one or two exceptional loads in a lesser caliber to beat out all but a few loads in an otherwise "stronger caliber". Garrett sells 44Mag "+P" monster hunting hardcast loads that are probably as effective as some 454s, as one example. There are numerous others.
 
.38+P should be just fine. I would however buy a .357 revolver like everybody else said just to have the ability to shoot different calibers for fun or training or whatever.

Really as home defense goes I am a .45 ACP to peak out the door and if need be run to the 12 gauge kind of guy. My wife however keeps a Ruger SP101 .357 snubbie, loaded with 5 rounds of .38+P hollow point. I sleep well enough.

Chris
 
Yes, if the proper ammunition is used and the shooter
does their part with proper shot placement. These are
the two contributing factor's to render a perp "bone
yard dead".:eek: :cool: :D

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
 
Yes, if the proper ammunition is used and the shooter does their part with proper shot placement. These are
the two contributing factor's to render a perp "bone
yard dead"
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Of course, you could always blow of his knee cap just for starters ... that would at least slow him down a bit! (half joking)

(I suspect just the sight of a handgun pointed at them will stop MOST BG's dead in their tracks ... but, as yet, is an untest theory of mine.)

Gunner
 
This whole subject loops around about every week or so.

TTBOMK the best answer I've seen is to find the gun and ammo that YOU shoot best, 22, .17, .50 whatever. One th elist of priorities, I'd place the caliber at down near the bottom. First look for something you can shoot well.

Of the ones that you shoot well,

more reliable is better than less reliable,

affordable is better than not afforadable,

concealable is better than not concealable,

more rounds are better than less rounds,

larger caliber is better than smaller caliber.
 
the only sure way to stop some one from moving (toword or away from you)

with ANY handgun is to shoot for the pelvis. break some bones there and he wont be able to walk. legs have a hard time functioning as designed when they arent attached to the body.
 
braindead, you must be referring to

a LAWS rocket, or Stinger missile. The fact is, long arms have(only rarely, thankfully) failed to stop. Be it a 12ga., .223 or even .308.:o

In answer to the poster's question, .38s cover my six daily.;)
 
yeah, i think if i empty my Winchester Model 12 into a perp and he keeps coming, i think its time to try something else (for example, a semi truck, a flame thrower, or PRAYER!) oh and jim, if i wer to go into a gun store and say" i want some 158 LSWC-HP +P", would he know what im talking about? what brand is it?
 
I realize that gaining knowledge about firearms can require a steep learing curve for some. This forum is a great place to explore and learn. The search feature is a great resource. There are an number of publications, like George Nonte's Firearms Encyclopedia that would not hurt anyone to buy. I can think of about 4 decent magazines, particularly the American Rifleman, that can help also.
 
"It was used successfully by pretty much every law enforcement agency in the country for over 50 years."

I'd have to dispute that successfully part. MANY stories of it not being successful, especially in the 158 round nosed lead version that was prevalent for years. A poor street cop with a 4" 6 shot .38 special revolver rigged to fire double-action only was definitely outgunned by any bad guy with a .45 semi-automatic, just as today. The .38 RNL overpenetrated people and underpenetrated glass and metal. Poor stopping power.
 
Hence the use of the hollowpoint wadcutter at +p velocities. After countless 9mm, .357, .223, and 12-gauge rounds, that's what SA Mireles used to end the infamous Miami-FBI shootout. Head shots at point blank range, from a .S&W 357 Magnum, no less.
 
if i wer to go into a gun store and say" i want some 158 LSWC-HP +P", would he know what im talking about? what brand is it?
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Depends what store. Sometimes when you say "I need some One Hundread Fifty Eight Grain lead semi-wadcutter Hollowpoint Plus Pees" they will just say somthing like "I have some hollow points here"
 
I think Ala Dan has it right.

Use the right ammo and place your shots well.

If you have a .38 you are going to have 6 rounds at most so you better make em count.

I recently picked up a .38 for carry because you can get RBCD ammo for it which (IMNSHO) makes the .38 round viable as a self defense round. A couple of years ago I just did not believe the .38 had the speed out of a snub nose revolver to be an optimum carry defense round. The .38 relies on a longer barrel to achieve a high velocity more so than a 9mm for instance.

The RBCD changes that and it is not plus p ammo so follow up shots are easy. This is a major consideration that is often overlooked. Some of that seriously stoked up plus p ammo just makes for a lousy second shot, is really tough to practice with and just hurts too much to use.

Do a look up on RBCD ammo on this forum and read some of the real life dog or charging boar stopped with RBCD stories and you will get the idea. It is not a gimmick, just a well engineered ammo that even makes a .380 round a viable defense carry round.
 
recommend .38 Spl. loads

I been using in CCW sidearm, the Hornady 140gr-JHP, factory spec is app. 950fps muzzle velocity.
NEVER had to use them, but I feel confident with them.
 
I think that the amount of shock a person's body can take greatly increases as it's "numbed" by drugs like meth, coke, lsd, etc. And I don't think it even has to have anything to do with drugs so much as how amped up a person is.
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Just for the sake of accuracy here, you were more right in the second sentence than the first. While those drugs certainly don't make people into better citizens, the only drug with any real association with drug-induced violence is alcohol. See "Psychoactive Substances and Violence," US DOJ Feb. 1994, at http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/govpubs/psycviol.htm
 
After reading the articles in Marshall and Sanow's Stopping Power written by them and other trusted gunners, and looking at the numbers, I dropped the 38 Special in favor of the .357 J-frame 340PD.

The 38 just doesn't hit hard enough from a 2" barrel to stagger the attacker with the first two shots like the full-power Federal 125gr 357B is more likely to do. According to some of the writers, this is needed to stop an attack.

But not many people can handle these lightweight guns with a full-power 357 load - maybe ME included. I'm still working with it, and it's not always easy to pull the trigger. A heavier gun would be better - like maybe the stainless S&W 640 or the Bodyguard model. But so far I'm sticking with the 340PD.
 
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