.38 Special 200 gr Winchester Western Super Police Load?

It seems to me that over the last 45 years we have learned a few things about handgun cartridges that Gaylord never imagined. I am leary of someone that claims that hitting someone anyplace in the body with a .45 will put him down.
Of historical interest, but at one time people believed the earth was flat.
 
Sounds like someone is describing the old 38/44 Super Police round. That was a very hot loaded 200 grn near flat nosed lead bullet shot out of the big 38/44 N frames like the Heavy Duty/Outdoorsman. They were loaded to +P+ 38 pressure levels or just a tad below current 357 magnum pressure levels.

I have not had the pleasure of trying any over the chrono to see how they would do. My understanding is out of the 5" 38/44 Heavy Duty they did around 900 FPS but this is based upon memories of conversations and not hard data.

I have also heard that out of 2" snubbies they were in the 500 to 600 FPS range, but lord knows who would want to try a 38/44 round out of a detective special or chief's special. If the gun survived the encounter the recoil would have to be stout.
 
I might add here that Chic Gaylord's book is the only book I have seen in the popular press, though now hard to find, that showed actual gunshot wounds. A dose of reality can be a little hard to take when you are speaking of shooting people, even though the wounds are cleaned up.

As far as the 38/44 and 200 grain bullets go, gunwriters of that period tended to recommend revolvers with at least a four-inch barrel and for more than one reason, the relevent one here being the velocity issue. Most of them also were inconsistent at times, just like I am, and generally illustrated their books and articles with 2-in barrel revolvers, including .22's, as well as others. Even Elmer Keith said there was no need for a holster for the j-frame because it was strictly a pocket gun. Yet in a very good article in Guns magazine from around 1960, he shows his own j-frame, complete with holster. Keith himself preferred a holstered N frame for concealed carry.

The British, when they went to the .38 revolver after WWI, used initially a 200 grain lead bullet, later changed to jacketed, in the .38 S&W chambering of the Webley and Enfield revolvers. They did not change over to 9mm until well after WWII.
 
The book I read by Gaylord was on combat handgunning. Frankly I think too much emphasis is put on ammo improvement since his writing. Give me the 38/44 with the 200 grain round over the 357 today. Save wear and tear on your gun in the process. It is interesting how pat we can be over a time not really understood today. All the quoted ballistics notwithstanding.
 
I didn't even know they made a .38-44 in the 200 grain Super Police. It apparently dropped off the charts a long time ago, it is not in the 1951 Gun Digest which shows nothing but the regular 200 @ 745, and the basic .38 HV of a 150 @ 1175 or a 158 @ 1115 fps.
 
Chic Gaylord was a buddie of my Uncle who was an NYPD detective.When I was a teen ager my uncle Gil took me there a few times. Ol fat Chic took me in the back in a little dingy room and gave me a half hour 'fast draw' lessons with one of his holsters and a High Standard Sentinal snub. I used to listen to every word that my uncle and him talked about. Yes my uncle carried a Detective special and an Official Police 4" loaded with the 200 grain load, which he said 'tumbled inside' when it hit.
When I legally had my first handgun in 1961 or so I bought Chic's book from him and a holster or two, both of which he signed to me!:)
 
The 200-gr. loading was NOT a .38-44 loading. It was a .38 Special loading, churning out about 250 ft. lbs. of energy at roughly 730 fps. They were also called "Highway Patrol" loadings.

It was an interim step by the ammunition companies to provide more powerful ammunition, but this ammo was no more effective against cars than the standard .38 Spl. loading was.

As far as I know, the only bullet weights offered in .38-44 ammo were 158-gr, loaded to about 1,100/1,200 fps, and 150-gr., loaded slightly hotter. A variety of bullet types were offered, including Remington and Winchester metal piercing ammo, along with lead round nose.
 
Mike Irwin said:
The 200-gr. loading was NOT a .38-44 loading. It was a .38 Special loading, churning out about 250 ft. lbs. of energy at roughly 730 fps.
Click to expand...

That is my recollection, also. I purchased one box in the mid-60's, and fired it in my S&W Model 40, which is a Chief's Special hammerless. The proper name is Centennial. Normal folks didn't have chronographs back then, but I can tell you that there was nothing out of the ordinary about the recoil.
 
Ok, I checked my References. The 200 grn super police round dates back to pre-WWII. It is not a 38/44 round. It is conventional load. It is listed as a 200 grn blunt nosed bullet at 671 fps out of a 6" barrel and 623 fps out of a 2" barrel.

My reference is Ken Water's, Handloader Pet Loads, September 1966 on the 38 special.

Sorry for the error on the 38/44 round. I believe I have read about a 38/44 200 grn round, but a quick check of my references could not find anything on it.
 
The Super Police loads were apparently originally loaded in the middle 1920s, and unfortunately there's a bit of confusion inherent in the name...

The bullets were very similar to those found in the .38 Colt (S&W) Super Police loads, which were originally introduced either just before or just after WW I. Colt, faced with the realization that their .38 Short Colt wasn't beating the .38 S&W, they bit the bullet and started offering their guns for .38 S&W, which they renamed the .38 Colt New Police.

They also introduced a flat point, 200-gr. bullet loading which was callled... you guessed it... the Super Police.

Peter, I'm pretty sure that the velocities you're listing are for the .38 S&W version of the Colt Super Police.

When the ammo companies started putting out .38 Specials with 200 gr. bullets, they were apparently named .38 Spl. Super Police on the boxes, or the aforementioned Highway Patrol.
 
Mike,

I got interested and dug into the archives a bit. Yes I was listing the old 38 smith and wesson velocities, but the 38 special version of the same round has the same velocities out of the same barrel lengths (give or take). The round was supposed to mimic the 38-200 british round which I am not familiar with.

Thus the round has the similar velocities and characteristics. It is not a 38/44 power level round at all. I will edit my post above to reflect this information.
 
And OF COURSE I am SURE you all know why the British 38-200 round was adopted and why the forensic scientists of the day:rolleyes: thought it was just about the equal of the .455 ?
Actually the .38spec 200 grain load was about 100-150 fps faster than the 38-200.
 
Gordo,

Yep, my references show that the .38 Spl. Highway Patrol load was a bit faster and more powerful than the .38 Super Police load.

It makes no sense that the ammo companies would have responded to a call for more powerful .38 Spl. ammo by introducing a round that was, in fact, a bit less powerful than the standard .38 Spl. loading at the time.


Peter,

The British .380-200 round was actually a literal copy of the .38 Colt Super Police round. Bullet form was a little different, but velocity and power were virtially identical.

Of course, a few years after the British adopted the lead-bullet .380-200, they became concerned about the lead "expanding" bullet and ended up giving it a metal jacket, which required that the weight be dropped to 180 or so grains.
 
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