I just got Chic Gaylord's Handgunners Guide (see amazon.com) as a stocking stuffer and he speaks about a 200 gr .38 special bullet called the Winchester Western Super Police Load. He considered it the best of all defense loads in the .38 special caliber. Is there any such load still around? The bullet looks almost like a big lightbulb sticking out of a lamp in the picture compared to the .38 hp and wadcutter and LRN rounds next to it. The heaviest bullet I can find is the 158 gr +P LWCHP
.38 Special 200 gr Winchester Western Super Police Load?
- Thread starter Doug.38PR
- Start date
juliet charley
New member
The 200-grain Super Police had a pretty good reputation among those who actually used it back then. The 158-grain +P LSWCHP is probably a better load, but it wasn't available back then. I not so sure Gaylord had it wrong as much as his advice was simply OBE'd.
Sir William
New member
Gaylord fixated on trivialities. He was never wrong, he just didn't try to reinvent the wheel. He designed excellent holsters but, he relied on others for their opinions/data that wasn't scientifically proved. The 38 in a 200 gr form really wasn't much. Modern JHPs and powders could make it a screamer though.
Well, I think the LSWCHP 158 gr was in his lineup of .38 rounds. At least that's what it looked like in the picture. I think he called it "the Keith load." In the picture it didn't break up (or mushroom) as as well as the Super Police load in the fired samples in his picture.
However, it might be that the LSWCHP/Keith load wasn't a +P round and didn't have that extra power behind it. I see nowhere him mentioning +P or anything saying that the bullet has any extra punch behind it apart from standard .38 special load. He does however like to emphasize hand loading cartridges to prime power and recommends a lineup of guns from that day that would handle it.
Ahem, why then doesn't somebody come out with such a round then! Sounds like a good idea to me
I've run quite a few 200 gr yrs ago. The 200 gr load usually ran about 600 fps out of a 4" brl. Run them in a 2" and the speed dropped off to just above 500 fps. In its day, compared to the then standard police load of 158 gr LRN, the 200 was advertised as being better. Whether it really was or not is debatable. It probably gave more penetration altho penetration was not an issue with the 158 LRN.
Jim Watson
New member
I don't know what Chic Gaylord thought a "Keith load" was, other than a cast holowpoint, but ol' Elmer loaded it with 13.5 grains of 2400 in Special brass. That is good for over 1200 fps and is far ahead of any modern +P+ and beats many brands of magnums. Gaylord had to say about the hollowpoint: "It is so deadly that the majority of police departments frown upon its use. There is the possibility of legal repercussions in the event of a wounding or a fatality of an innocent bystander resulting from the use of these lethal projectiles." We now worry more about "overpenetration" if we DON'T use hollowpoints, but the terminal ballistics were less studied in 1960 when Handgunner's Guide came out. He might have been right, though. I worry more about where the misses go, not the shoot-throughs.
A snubby with Super Police is not a real powerful weapon, but I found it no trouble to load a 200 gr bullet to 1100 fps in a 4" magnum. That would hit hard with the soft swaged factory bullet, and is a load Gaylord recommended.
A snubby with Super Police is not a real powerful weapon, but I found it no trouble to load a 200 gr bullet to 1100 fps in a 4" magnum. That would hit hard with the soft swaged factory bullet, and is a load Gaylord recommended.
Jim Watson
New member
ISP2605, before you pass along the idea that I make this stuff up, you might ought to refer to page 272 of 'Sixguns' where Elmer says:
".38/44 Special. Keith 160 grain hollow point or hollow base bullet sized .357 or .358. Hercules #2400 powder. Charge 13.5 grains with either of the Ideal catalog numbers of this bullet: #358429 or #358431, the bullets being crimped in the crimp groove. Remington .38/44 cases and primers."
".38/44 Special. Keith 160 grain hollow point or hollow base bullet sized .357 or .358. Hercules #2400 powder. Charge 13.5 grains with either of the Ideal catalog numbers of this bullet: #358429 or #358431, the bullets being crimped in the crimp groove. Remington .38/44 cases and primers."
"ISP2605, before you pass along the idea that I make this stuff up"
Take a chill dude. You're reading stuff that I never said anything of the sort. Lighten up. I quite familar with the "Keith load". I was agreeing with you. What I was pointing out was what's usually referred to as the "Keith load" was with a hard cast, sharp shoulder SWC.
Don't be so defensive. I was siding with you.
Take a chill dude. You're reading stuff that I never said anything of the sort. Lighten up. I quite familar with the "Keith load". I was agreeing with you. What I was pointing out was what's usually referred to as the "Keith load" was with a hard cast, sharp shoulder SWC.
Don't be so defensive. I was siding with you.
Jim Watson
New member
Your'e right.
The difference is you were talking about what is "usually referred to as the Keith load" and I was going by what Elmer Keith actually said and did.
I am sorry I did not pick up the fine difference.
The difference is you were talking about what is "usually referred to as the Keith load" and I was going by what Elmer Keith actually said and did.
I am sorry I did not pick up the fine difference.
Not a problem.
Casting a HP is a pain in the behind, particularly if one is trying for a really hard cast bullet. The HP plug just doesn't give a good of a HP cavity as commercial HP bullets. They just aren't all that satisfactory of a performer either compared to store bought HP. He was loading that load years before commercial HP bullets were around. Casting was a lot cheaper than store bought and you could get a whole lot more variety of bullet shapes and weights.
Casting a HP is a pain in the behind, particularly if one is trying for a really hard cast bullet. The HP plug just doesn't give a good of a HP cavity as commercial HP bullets. They just aren't all that satisfactory of a performer either compared to store bought HP. He was loading that load years before commercial HP bullets were around. Casting was a lot cheaper than store bought and you could get a whole lot more variety of bullet shapes and weights.
There is the lineup of bullets in the handbook. You may not be able to read too much of the page depending on your eyesight but from left to right is the .357, 357 Keith hand load, .38 Keith hand load and the .38 Winchester Western 200 gr Super Police. The two middle ones look JUST LIKE the SWCLHP.
Jim Watson
New member
"The two middle ones look JUST LIKE the SWCLHP."
The picture is captioned wrong. The left cartridge is probably a factory .357.
The other three are all .38 special, two different styles of SWC and the 200 gr RN. I think the second cartridge is a real Keith pattern SWC, notice the very wide front band. The third has a narrower band and would not meet Keith's specification.
The picture is captioned wrong. The left cartridge is probably a factory .357.
The other three are all .38 special, two different styles of SWC and the 200 gr RN. I think the second cartridge is a real Keith pattern SWC, notice the very wide front band. The third has a narrower band and would not meet Keith's specification.
Sir William
New member
IIRC, a bigger issue was that ONLY the large S&W 38/44s on N frames, Colt Bisleys and New Services were capable of handling the Keith loads. Bisleys were often factory refitted to 357 Magnum. The long 6" and 7.5" barrels could deliver on the promise. The move was on to 4" barrels though for less weight on the Sam Browne and for less holes in the prowl car front seats. Why monkey with a 38 in 200 gr form that needed a 6" barrel? The 4" 357 Magnum could do the job with a 158 gr or 180 gr bullet. I believe that to be the reason the 38 Super Police didn't succeed.