.38 special 158gr. +p lswc-hp question?

G

glock17luver

New member
I could have swore that I've read some where that this round out of a 2inch revolver has the stoping power of a 45acp hardball round out of a full size 1911. Is this true? I do know this is THE MOST EFFECTIVE ROUND out of a 2 inch gun.

I think I read this one the ed & surnow web site fwiw. If thair stats are wrong then i'ad be greatful for any help that can point me to some info on the real world performance of this round i.e. fps,expanded diamiter,and penetration depth.

These are the winchester rounds btw number X38spd I have heard they make the best version of this round also. If this helps at all. thanks
 
Cut and pasted from: http://www.greent.com/40Page/ammo/38spl/38spl-advoc.htm

Referred to as the Chicago load or the FBI load, the 158-grain lead semi-wadcutter hollowpoint .38 Special +P quickly became the standard for American police. Using Marshall and Sanow's findings (very questionable, I admit, but they do provide some basis for comparison) we find this load with a 78% rating from a 4" barrel. Not too shabby, when one considers that the same source gives the infamous .45 ACP Black Talon an 81%! Recent modern loads utilizing the newer designer bullets have yielded even higher numbers for the .38.
Click to expand...
 
If you're a fan and true believer of Messrs. Marshall and Sanow, the 158gr+P SWCHP is, indeed, a fearsome load. Their current book rates Federal's version at 67% from a 2" barrel and 76% from a 4" tube. The legendary .45 ACP hardball only manages a 62% grade. That's before the professor figures in the curve, of course. If you don't buy the OSS theory, then ... nevermind. :D
 
I think the best testiment to the 158 +P LSWHP concerns the street cops who used it.
In the old days the standard police load was a standard .38 Special 158 round nose. It was widely known as "The Widow Maker". This was in reference to the numerous failures to stop attributed to it. Street cops and their unions bitched, and sued enough that political officials finally had to adopt the +P round.

Depending on where you live this was know variously as: The Federal, FBI, Chicago, St. Louis, New Orleans, LAPD, etc. load. About as soon as the cops started using the +P, the failures to stop....stopped.

It is also effective out of the 2" barrel revolvers most off duty, undercovers, and detectives used to carry. In some areas it was known as "The .38 Splat", because that's what it suposedly sounded like when it hit.
As far as I know it's still the King of the .38's.
 
It's very reliable. Soft unjacketed lead goes "splat" all right, even at low velocity and a 2" tube. One theory is that these are more "clog resistant" than many modern designs, because even if "clogged" the rim of the lead hollow will deform. The rim of a JHP is "stiffer".

Even without deformation, they'll punch deep and act like the "Keith-style semi-wadcutter" they're derived from.
 
I believe it was Ayoob who said that .38 lead HP hits like a .45 hardball. But the proof of the pudding, at least for me, is that Ayoob has shot some animals in slaughterhouses. He found that this round did the best of the .38's, and that it would penetrate the skull of a pig and get on into the brain, when .380's wouldn't.

I like Gold Dot, but it's a tight fit in some chambers, and the copper jacket turns pretty dark if the rounds are carried for long. It is very hot for a .38. The 129 grain Hydra-Shok has a good rep, but everyone on both sides of the fence seems to concur that the lead HP works well. I especially like to carry it when a large animal may be the recepient (sp?) of a round from my .38's. Figure it'll get in deep and make a dog or bear wish it had chosen someone else to bite...Of course, by choice, I carry a heavier caliber if I think something feral and inhuman may bother me.

Lone Star
 
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Federal dropped the Nyclad SWHP from their line, which is the one that I used. It is now for law inforcement order only. Who still makes a .38 special lead SWHP ?
 
MrG- There is no law against buying Federal "LE only" ammo. It's just company policy. Ask around at a big gun show and some dealer will sell you some. I have bought the 9mm +P+ without questions on numerous occasions.
 
glock17luver,
Thanks for the info. That is a great price on the Winchester LHP !
I have never tried the Winchester in a LHP, but how can you go wrong for $8.95 for a box of 50. I looked up Kieslers on the web and ordered a few boxes.
 
It is probably the definitive serious .38 Spl load - -

I wouldn't go so far as to say it rates as high as a .45 ACP, but it sure makes the snub nosed .38 a viable proposition.

FYI - - -In this part of the country, it is often called "The Dallas load," "the City Load," or the MS (man stopper???) from the Winchester product code. Back in the 1970s, Southwest Institute of Forensic Science (Dallas County Crime Lab) tested a LOT of off-the shelf ammo from standard handguns. Knowledgeable cops paid close attention to the results. I visited the firearms section whenever I was nearby, and learned a lot from Alan Jones and Louie Anderson. I viewed a lot of bullets recovered at autopsies and it was most enlightening! Dallas PD issue at the time was a 4" S&W .38 and the MS load.

Remington and Federal soon introduced their own version of the 158 LSWCHP. Win later reduced the velocity of their load. I don't know if this was permanent or just that lot. I chronographed some recent examples a few years back. The Remington was SLIGHTLY warmer then the W-W--about 20 fps or so from same revolver, IIRC.

I take a fresh box and reload the various revolvers in my family every so often. It is the load I prefer my loved ones to have for home defense in .38s.

Best,
Johnny
 
I find that the Winchester variant is easy to find, the Remington less so (but more desirable).

Weshoot2 (Gray Area Ammo) rolls some of these up too. Dunno about velocity or such. I'd like to see somebody try and maximize the powder charge and burn rate to the 2" barrel guns...
 
The merits of the LSWCHP +P bullet design, especially when fired out of short barrels, have been consistently proven. Even before anyone thought gelatin testing was more than a taste test.

Something just as important to remember, though, is that this bullet weight generally has a point of impact that matches the point of aim in short barreled revolvers. The same can't be said for many of the lighter rounds.

Of course, a lot of folks consider the snub nosed revolvers to be little more than "belly guns", and the sights "unnecessary". I disagree, but that might just be because I need at least a flash sight picture to make moving headshots on silhouettes at 5-7 yards.

In skilled hands, however, and using the basic iron sights, most of them are capable of surprising accuracy at reasonable distances. Tightly centered groups at 10-15 yards aren't uncommon with even a little practice, and clothespins at 10 yards hones double-action trigger squeeze skill.

Unfortunately, plain lead bullets aren't recommended for use in many of the latest generation of the ultra lightweight revolvers, like the Ti series, since the increased felt recoil is potentially able to unseat the bullets. Jacketed ammunition is recommended, and the best performing of the heavier JHP's ... the Winchester 147gr +P ... doesn't seem to be available anymore.

That's one of the reasons I've resisted the urge to replace my older 649 Bodyguard, and newer 642-1 (airweight), with a Ti or Scandium weapon ... 158gr LSWCHP +P in the aluminum 642-1 is a very comfortable, reliable and accurate combination ... for me.
 
38 SPL. 158gr.LSWCHP+P

That was Our departments standard issue load before switching to .40 & .45's.I still carry that load in My snubbies on a daily basis.tom.
 
I deeply regret to inform the membership that I've just received the 2002 Federal ammo catalog, and the lead HP is no longer listed under their Classic revolver loads.

Could be that they've moved it to law enforcement only sales, as with the Nyclad version.

I mostly used this round as I had access to a fairly good stock of it, and it tended to shoot slightly better than the Winchester in my guns. Remington's bullet lead is softer, and I had to clean bores more aggressively. It probably would expand better.

Winchester's lead is a bit harder, so probably expands less well, but probably okay. The Fed was in between the others as far as I could tell, and I liked it a lot. Hope no one one else is about to drop this fine round. It goes a long way toward making the .38 Special a viable defense arm.

Lone Star
 
(BLUSHING AGAIN)

Thanks, Jim.

This particular subject is of critical importance to me personally, as my wife uses a S&W M38 as her primary.

Here's what makes defense ammo 'effective':

1) Reliability. It must go bang. EVERY time.

2) Accuracy. Goes where pointed, and gives user confidence.

3) Ability to make a hole. Not as simplistic as it sounds.

That's the list. That's it. No 'new' revelations, just reliable accurate ammo that makes a hole. The rest is up to the user, the part about where the hole gets made is up to (among others) me..........


In 38 Special, we normally have a reliable accurate platform. Next part, the 'make a hole', is in this caliber more ammo-dependent. Here is a cartridge where I prefer a 158g bullet, but one that makes a good hole. I like the swaged type for their ability to deform (and hopefully expand). Since I can choose I use a velocity based on shooter skill.

Ideal might be a 158g LSWC-HP at 1500fps, but that's hard to do from a snub 38.
So what we're left with is a 158g LSWC-HP at as close to 1000fps as safe.

I also like a 115g JHP (.355" 9mm bullet) at 1250fps. Or 1330fps.

Oh the choices!

And then, after all that, the bullet still needs to hit something important. That's why a rock is a dangerous projectile.............
 
Weshoot: how close to 1,000fps are you getting in a *snubby*?

Can I order a batch of stuff that'll pull 950 from a 2" steel-frame S&W or whatever snub you have, knowing that with a .002" gap I'm probably going to be spot-on at around 980 - 1,000fps?

How much per box of 50?
 
Jim March

Please go to e-mail for commercial discussion; see 'profile'.

My wife's load uses a no-longer-available custom lead bullet not of conventional shape and weight.
No, don't ask.

And, uh, how do you feel about SAAMI? (My 'safe' vs their 'safe'.)

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
 
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