38 snub ammo question

a Glazer is the first shot, followed by the FBI 158 gr +p SWCHP... then another Glazer... then two more of the FBI loads.

I've seen the video of what those Glazers do... unreal. But if penetration is needed... I just pull the trigger a second time.

That's how I have my snub .38 loaded anyway.... :)

Dan
 
"How many people have you actually seen shot with 38 wadcutters?"

I will defer to the late Jim Cirillos' wrtings on that point. What "logic" is there to say, for example, "how many cases have you tried in court?" to prevent you from commenting or having any opinion on any trial or any legal issue. My experience in witnessing wadcutter shootings is irrelevant. Let me put it another way, I'll trust the owner of Buffalo Bore over you, with all due respect:

"Item 20D utilizes a very hard cast 150gr. WAD CUTTER bullet. The bullet is made hard, so it won't deform or mushroom. It cuts/crushes a "cookie cutter", full diameter hole in human flesh just like it does on a paper target. It penetrates deeply (roughly 14 to 16 inches in human tissue) and its full diameter profile maximizes blood loss as it cuts and crushes (not slips or slides) its way through tissue. Although I've never been shot with a full profile wad cutter bullet, I must assume that the initial impact of that wide flat nosed bullet, is crushingly formidable. As a teenager, I took to the woods on a regular basis and killed many a critter with heavily loaded 38SPL wad cutters'. The effect of a full profile wad cutter on small game was obvious and amazing, compared to regular round nosed bullets. That flat nose, literally hammers living things. These bullets are hard and properly lubed and will NOT lead your barrel. Note my velocities from real world "over the counter" revolver s- NOT TEST BARRELS!"
a. S&W mod. 60, 2 inch barrel - 868 fps (251 ft. lbs.)
b. S&W mod. 66, 2.5 inch barrel - 890 fps (264 ft. lbs.)
c. Ruger SP101, 3 inch barrel - 961 fps (308 ft. lbs.)
d. S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch barrel - 1005 fps (336 ft. lbs.)

We know out of a J Frame it will go two feet in ballistic gelatin. Again I ask, what bullet does anyone think is best out of a .38 Special? For expanding bullets I believe it is the Corbon 110 DPX. For me, the 150 grain hard cast wadcutter from Buffalo Bore.
 
I will defer to the late Jim Cirillos' wrtings on that point.
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Nuff said. I HAVE seen people shot with it, and I actually spoke with Jim Cirillo when he taught at FLETC about the issue. I have NEVER seen a low velocity WC 'Punch through" anything on the street. The load @1000 FPS with a hard cast bullet..... Now we are talking!

I hate to tell you but using a simulation with nothing to gauge what you are looking at is not good science.

The NYPD stakeout squad had 2 loads available at the time LRN and 148 Gr wadcutter. I agree with you and the late Mr Cirillo, a WC is much better than a LRN, but they are both scraping the bottom of the barrel.
 
Who are you going to believe me, or your lying eyes? Just kidding. I agree, enough talk. And, at least we agree that a hard cast wadcutter at a decent velocity is better than nothing.
 
People certainly are hung up on +P JHP ammo these days. It almost seems incomprehensible that we were able to kill millions of people with non expanding bullets for the last hundred years or so. Think of all the people shot during the Civil War with lead balls. They must have been wimps.
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Tattoo this to your forehead backwards. "WAR OF ATRITION" Then look in the mirror everyday and you'll get it. LOL Just kidding I'm being a snart buttt.

To the OP, I think recoil is one of your issue's, don't ask me why, I'm really smart. LOL

Post #18

Nanuk

How many people have you actually seen shot with 38 wadcutters?
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Post #24

And, at least we agree that a hard cast wadcutter at a decent velocity is better than nothing.
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I carry 135g GDHPs +Ps in my S&W .38 air weight, the recoil is pretty snappy for a fallow up shot, but if only had just 147g wadcutters to load my CCW, I'd sleep like a baby with faith in my loads. Of course the good stuff.

Food for thought.

TBS, a .38spl is not known (61.125488544%) as a first shot take down round, unlike a 44mag. So,...fallow up low recoil shots on target could be the ya or na of the take down.
 
OK how many people have you seen killed with a nuclear weapon? If you haven't seen anyone killed by one then I guess that's just another one of those internet theories.:cool:
 
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JMortimer said:
-1 to what KyJim said. 8.5" of penetration in 10% ballistic gelatin. That is out of a J Frame at 866 fps. It do expand but it don't penetrate. To each his own, but with that anemic and impotent penetration, I'd go somewhere else. Here is Brassfetcher video for same:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=1RcbrUjcPAQ
The Corbon 110 grain DPX is clearly better choice.
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Keep in mind that the ballistic gel tests at Brass Fetchers are practically worthless. You'll note the video you linked to stated it was was 20% ballistic gel and standard is 10%. There's also no mention of calibration (which would be meaningless anyway since they are using a non-standard mix).

American Rifleman tested them. Five shot average in 10% calibrated ballistic gel was 11 inches penetration and expansion to .577 inches. http://www.americanrifleman.org/ArticlePage.aspx?id=1390&cid=32.


Here's another where the tester used 10% calibrated ballistic gel. Through four layers of denim, penetration was 13 3/4 inch and expansion was .593 inches. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khazbS9pWjE

Take a look at this test in Sim-Test Ballistic medium (equivalent to 10% calibrated ballistic gel) from tnoutdoors9 at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k890Rio2oBY. Penetration through four layers of denim is 12 3/8 inches and expansion to .544 inches average.

All the bullets above retained practically their entire weight.

You can find similar results in test after test. Don't get hung up on Brass Fetchers. I used to really devour every thing they wrote until someone pointed out details like the 20% gel mix.

BTW, not saying there is anything wrong with DPX or certain other loads. However, I have found Gold Dots to be consistently good performers across a variety of handgun calibers and they have shown good performance repeatedly in tests.
 
Keep in mind that the ballistic gel tests at Brass Fetchers are practically worthless. You'll note the video you linked to stated it was was 20% ballistic gel and standard is 10%
-KyJim
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Just to note, don't discount everything at Brass Fetcher too hastily. most of their actual full tests and write ups are indeed done with calibrated 10% gel. Why on earth they would use 20% ballistics gel for all those videos is beyond me. Perhaps they wanted to make sure nothing went past the block, or maybe they were only interested in energy transfer (based on the charts they have in the videos) as opposed to wound simulation, but i really don't know.

Either way, if you look at the actual test write-ups, such as the newer ones with bone simulant, or the summary tables of their older tests, they are all done using calibrated 10% ballistics gelatin (although you are correct that the exact calibration isn't always listed).

P.S. I am in no way affiliated with Brass Fetcher. I Just appreciate their work.
 
"I have found Gold Dots to be consistently good performers across a variety of handgun calibers and they have shown good performance repeatedly in tests."

Good points. Most of Brassfetcher's testing is 10% and the video is 20%. One thing is for sure, the Gold Dots can hold up to a lot of speed. The .38 Special does not seem to take full advantage of the Gold Dot.
 
One thing is for sure, the Gold Dots can hold up to a lot of speed. The .38 Special does not seem to take full advantage of the Gold Dot.
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The Gold Dots used in the .38 Short Barrel loads does seem to have been designed for the speed obtained in a snub nose revolver. High speed does not seem to be an issue here.


This ammo is designed specifically for short barrel compact guns. It is designed to give you the velocity needed out of a short barrel weapon to get optimum expansion at short ranges.
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http://www.slickguns.com/product/38-special-speer-le-gold-dot-short-barrel-135gr-p-ammo-2995
 
Differing philosophies

Do you subscribe to the high velocity/light bullet philosophy or the low velocity/heavy bullet thinking? I can't decide so I stay in the middle with 125 gr JHP +P which seems to be the best trade-off in bullet energy. One thing that makes me lean to the heavy bullet theory though is that there is no question that the .45 ACP is a reliable man stopper and I figure a slower but heavier bullet like the .38 +P 158 gr. JHP is a not-quite-as powerful analog to the .45s performance. The .357 also has a good reputation as an effective stopper but in the house I'll stick to the .38+P because I would like to keep my hearing.
 
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