.38 = .357 How Possible?
- Thread starter Old Fud
- Start date
Too Far Gone
Inactive
Let's see...
.38 S&W
.38 British (same as above with different name)
.38/200 (same as above with different name)
.380 British (same again, the Brits like to carry caliber to 3rd digit)
.380 ACP (Auto Colt Pistol, rimless case for auto loaders)
.38 S&W Special (sometimes just .38 Special and not same as .38 S&W)
.38 Colt (I think same as Special)
.38 ACP (semi-rimmed case used in early Colt auto pistols)
.38 Super (same case as .38 ACP but loaded to much higher pressures)
.357 Magnum (slightly longer than .38 Special using same bullets)
.357 Maximum (slightly longer than .357 Magnum)
9MM Luger
9MM Parabellum (same as 9MM Luger)
9MM Long
9MM Largo (same as above)
9MM Federal (rimmed version of 9MM Luger for revolvers)
9MM Corto (same as .380 ACP, corto is Spanish for short)
9MM Kurtz (same as .380 ACP, kurtz is German for short)
I have forgotten some for sure. It is mostly marketing. "38" sounds better than "36," and .38 Colt because they didn't want to stamp ".38 S&W" on their guns. Other names come about through popular or nationalistic usage.
.38 S&W
.38 British (same as above with different name)
.38/200 (same as above with different name)
.380 British (same again, the Brits like to carry caliber to 3rd digit)
.380 ACP (Auto Colt Pistol, rimless case for auto loaders)
.38 S&W Special (sometimes just .38 Special and not same as .38 S&W)
.38 Colt (I think same as Special)
.38 ACP (semi-rimmed case used in early Colt auto pistols)
.38 Super (same case as .38 ACP but loaded to much higher pressures)
.357 Magnum (slightly longer than .38 Special using same bullets)
.357 Maximum (slightly longer than .357 Magnum)
9MM Luger
9MM Parabellum (same as 9MM Luger)
9MM Long
9MM Largo (same as above)
9MM Federal (rimmed version of 9MM Luger for revolvers)
9MM Corto (same as .380 ACP, corto is Spanish for short)
9MM Kurtz (same as .380 ACP, kurtz is German for short)
I have forgotten some for sure. It is mostly marketing. "38" sounds better than "36," and .38 Colt because they didn't want to stamp ".38 S&W" on their guns. Other names come about through popular or nationalistic usage.
Rather than lose sleep, weight, and sanity over something as inconsequential as caliber designations, may I suggest if you have a rainy afternoon to fill that you consider this one- If God created us, who created God? There has to be a point of origin for everything.
Just a thought for the next level when you get tired of trying to figure out caliber names.
Denis
Just a thought for the next level when you get tired of trying to figure out caliber names.
Denis
Mike Irwin
Staff
The .44 Magnum traces its lineage directly back to the .44 Smith & Wesson American (1867-68), with stops at the .44 Special (1907) and the .44 Russian (1870ish).
The .44 American WAS a true .44 caliber -- it used a heeled bullet, just like many of the early .38 Rimfire and possibly a few of the early centerfire rounds.
The Russian round was apparently S&W's first non-heeled, inside lubricated bullet design, which was done at the behest (imagine this) the Russians.
Given that the new bullet design offered a number of advantages, including lubricant that was protected by the case neck (instead of being smeared on the exterior of the bullet as with heeled bullet designs), and was cheaper and easier to make (less lead and easier to seat), it didn't take long for all of S&W's designs to incorporate the new bullet style, or for other manufacturers to follow suit.
The .38 Short Colt, copied from the British .380 revolver design, used the heeled outside lubricated bullet, while the .38 S&W did not -- one of the reasons why the .38 S&W gained supremacy.
I'm unclear as to whether the original design for the .38 Long Colt used a heeled bullet or not, but given that it was introduced in 1875, probably not, but you never know with Colt.
The .44 American WAS a true .44 caliber -- it used a heeled bullet, just like many of the early .38 Rimfire and possibly a few of the early centerfire rounds.
The Russian round was apparently S&W's first non-heeled, inside lubricated bullet design, which was done at the behest (imagine this) the Russians.
Given that the new bullet design offered a number of advantages, including lubricant that was protected by the case neck (instead of being smeared on the exterior of the bullet as with heeled bullet designs), and was cheaper and easier to make (less lead and easier to seat), it didn't take long for all of S&W's designs to incorporate the new bullet style, or for other manufacturers to follow suit.
The .38 Short Colt, copied from the British .380 revolver design, used the heeled outside lubricated bullet, while the .38 S&W did not -- one of the reasons why the .38 S&W gained supremacy.
I'm unclear as to whether the original design for the .38 Long Colt used a heeled bullet or not, but given that it was introduced in 1875, probably not, but you never know with Colt.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"9MM Kurtz"
There's no such creature.
It's 9mm Kurz -- there's no t in there...
There's no such creature.
It's 9mm Kurz -- there's no t in there...
Too Far Gone
Inactive
You're probably right. Spelling was never my best talent, especially when spelling in foreign languages. Thank you for pointing out my error. Do you feel better now? Was it really important? Did it really make a big difference in the point of the message? 
Mike Irwin
Staff
"Thank you for pointing out my error."
De nada.
"Do you feel better now?"
With 60 ounces of strong coffee on board, I'm feeling fine.
"Was it really important?"
Yes.
"Did it really make a big difference in the point of the message?"
Accuracy of information is always essential to the message.
The reason I brought it up is because that is probably the single most common spelling error/misconception when talking about handgun rounds, and it has been for the better part of 50 years, or longer.
De nada.
"Do you feel better now?"
With 60 ounces of strong coffee on board, I'm feeling fine.
"Was it really important?"
Yes.
"Did it really make a big difference in the point of the message?"
Accuracy of information is always essential to the message.
The reason I brought it up is because that is probably the single most common spelling error/misconception when talking about handgun rounds, and it has been for the better part of 50 years, or longer.
"Caliber" isn't even the right word...
It's even more confusing than we think.
"Caliber" is actually the ratio of a barrel's bore to it's length. For example, the US Navy's classic 5" gun is a 5"/54 (caliber), the barrel is 54 times longer than the diameter, or approximately 270 inches.
How did this come to mean simply the bore diameter, when refering to small arms, but still keep the original meaning when refering to big guns?
--Shannon
It's even more confusing than we think.
"Caliber" is actually the ratio of a barrel's bore to it's length. For example, the US Navy's classic 5" gun is a 5"/54 (caliber), the barrel is 54 times longer than the diameter, or approximately 270 inches.
How did this come to mean simply the bore diameter, when refering to small arms, but still keep the original meaning when refering to big guns?
--Shannon
Mike Irwin
Staff
"caliber is actually the ratio of a barrel's bore to its length."
No, it's not.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=caliber
The Navy usage of designating a gun by its caliber, and the length of the barrel in calibers, is a post Civil War convention.
The term caliber has been used to refer to the inside diameter of a tube (not just firearms) or the outside diameter of a projectile since at least the 1600s, long before the British or United States Navies started designating their guns in this matter. And in fact, long before the United States even existed...
Ah!
This is what I was looking for.
The etymology of the word...
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=caliber
No, it's not.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=caliber
The Navy usage of designating a gun by its caliber, and the length of the barrel in calibers, is a post Civil War convention.
The term caliber has been used to refer to the inside diameter of a tube (not just firearms) or the outside diameter of a projectile since at least the 1600s, long before the British or United States Navies started designating their guns in this matter. And in fact, long before the United States even existed...
Ah!
This is what I was looking for.
The etymology of the word...
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=caliber
I had assumed the origin of the term was British (The language is, after all, "English"...). I have also heard this "variant" definition of "caliber" used in reference to non-Naval artillery, including, if memory serves, tank main guns. British tanks, come to think of it.
Can you shed any light on when and how this new meaning came into usage? Was it, in fact the Brits? And why did this alternate definition only come into use for big guns, while small arms kept the original meaning?
Thanks for the etymology... the evolution of language is fascinating.
--Shannon
Can you shed any light on when and how this new meaning came into usage? Was it, in fact the Brits? And why did this alternate definition only come into use for big guns, while small arms kept the original meaning?
Thanks for the etymology... the evolution of language is fascinating.
--Shannon
Mike Irwin
Staff
Remeber that English is an amalgam language. It draws heavily on other languages for many of its words -- Latin and French especially.
It probably was the British who started designating guns like this, but it could have been the Americans, as well. As far as I can tell, it started sometime around the 1870s or 1880s.
The reason is simple, but the process is confusing as hell...
In the days when cannons fired iron balls, you could designate them by ball weight. There were other descriptive terms for the tubes (carronade, demiculvern, blah blah blah), but a 24 pounder was a 24 pounder pretty much the world around, because an English 24 pound iron ball would be roughly the same diameter as a French 24 pound iron ball.
When shell firing guns entered service, there was an attempt to maintain the old gun nomenclature, such as the Armstrong 110-lb shell guns that were mounted on the Warrior, but it was realized early on that it wasn't going to work nearly as well. You could have two guns, but 110 pounders, but because they fire elongated, hollow shells instead of spherical iron balls, the calibers could be quite a bit different.
In American usage, especially during the Civil War, the two systems overlapped. You had the standard artillery piece, the 12-pound Napoleon, designed in the days of solid iron shot. But you also had the shell firing Parrot rifle. The interesting thing about the Parrot? It was often designated by BOTH shell weight and caliber, such as the 3"/10 lb Parrot rifle that was a standard field artillery piece,
In British service, the field artillery still used the old nomenclature right up through World War II and beyond -- 17 pounder, 25 pounder, etc. But at the same time, they also started mixing in both inch AND metric calibers in the designations. Confusing, no?
Try this on for size... 17 lb, 76mm, 3". All refer to the 17-lb anti-tank gun mounted on the Sherman Firefly tank.
Or, 25 lb, 3.95" gun howitzer.
OK, I've gone pretty far afield, so let's get back to the question of Naval usage.
As I said, I've seen references to this system in Naval usage in the 1880s with the new classes of American battleships.
I think the main reason is because you could have several classes, or marks, of say 5" or 7" or 12" guns in service at the same time, and depending on the age of the ship on which the guns were mounted, they might take different shells. Using the caliber, in inches, and tube length expressed in calibers, was a handy way of letting everyone know EXACTLY what gun was being talked about, and what type of ammunition was required.
This was especially important during WW II when in the early days there were at least 3 types of 5" gun in service -- the 5"/25, the 5"/38, and the 5"/51. Possibly there were others, as well. The 5"/25 used fixed ammunition, while the others used, I believe, semi-fixed ammo. If you told the QM that you needed 5" ammo for the guns on your ships, especially an older battleship, you could be requesting either 5"/25 ammo for anti-aircraft use, or 5"/51 ammo for the secondary batteries.
It probably was the British who started designating guns like this, but it could have been the Americans, as well. As far as I can tell, it started sometime around the 1870s or 1880s.
The reason is simple, but the process is confusing as hell...
In the days when cannons fired iron balls, you could designate them by ball weight. There were other descriptive terms for the tubes (carronade, demiculvern, blah blah blah), but a 24 pounder was a 24 pounder pretty much the world around, because an English 24 pound iron ball would be roughly the same diameter as a French 24 pound iron ball.
When shell firing guns entered service, there was an attempt to maintain the old gun nomenclature, such as the Armstrong 110-lb shell guns that were mounted on the Warrior, but it was realized early on that it wasn't going to work nearly as well. You could have two guns, but 110 pounders, but because they fire elongated, hollow shells instead of spherical iron balls, the calibers could be quite a bit different.
In American usage, especially during the Civil War, the two systems overlapped. You had the standard artillery piece, the 12-pound Napoleon, designed in the days of solid iron shot. But you also had the shell firing Parrot rifle. The interesting thing about the Parrot? It was often designated by BOTH shell weight and caliber, such as the 3"/10 lb Parrot rifle that was a standard field artillery piece,
In British service, the field artillery still used the old nomenclature right up through World War II and beyond -- 17 pounder, 25 pounder, etc. But at the same time, they also started mixing in both inch AND metric calibers in the designations. Confusing, no?
Try this on for size... 17 lb, 76mm, 3". All refer to the 17-lb anti-tank gun mounted on the Sherman Firefly tank.
Or, 25 lb, 3.95" gun howitzer.
OK, I've gone pretty far afield, so let's get back to the question of Naval usage.
As I said, I've seen references to this system in Naval usage in the 1880s with the new classes of American battleships.
I think the main reason is because you could have several classes, or marks, of say 5" or 7" or 12" guns in service at the same time, and depending on the age of the ship on which the guns were mounted, they might take different shells. Using the caliber, in inches, and tube length expressed in calibers, was a handy way of letting everyone know EXACTLY what gun was being talked about, and what type of ammunition was required.
This was especially important during WW II when in the early days there were at least 3 types of 5" gun in service -- the 5"/25, the 5"/38, and the 5"/51. Possibly there were others, as well. The 5"/25 used fixed ammunition, while the others used, I believe, semi-fixed ammo. If you told the QM that you needed 5" ammo for the guns on your ships, especially an older battleship, you could be requesting either 5"/25 ammo for anti-aircraft use, or 5"/51 ammo for the secondary batteries.
To ad even more confusion, sometimes the cartridge is named after the bore diameter at the lands and sometimes it is named after diameter at the grooves, but the actual bullet diameter must match the grooves. That is why 30 '06, 300 Winchester and 308 Winchester use the same diameter bullet. Sometimes a cartridge is named an even number because it sounds better, is simpler, or is more marketable. Winchester was going to come out with 27 WCF but marketing changed it to 270 Winchester. It uses .277" bullets. If you look up the metric equivelent to .277" it is (drumroll) 7MM. Remington then came out with the 280 Remington. It uses .284" bullets. .284" it turns out equals 7.2MM. 7MM Mauser uses (you guessed it) .284" bullets as does 7MM Remington Magnum. Winchester necked down the 308 Winchester and called the cartridge 243 Winchester. Amazingly, it actually uses .243" bullets. Remingtons answer was the 244 Remington. It of course used .243" bullets. Later, Remington changed the name of the cartridge to 6MM Remington. 6MM converts to .236". The 6MM Lee Navy rifle of the late 19th century used .236" bullets. 303 British uses .311" bullets, because it is named after the diameter at the lands.
Across the pond, British gunmakers adopted German cartridges for their rifles, but demurred at putting the Mauser name on a Holland & Holland or Rigby. They simply changed the name of the cartridge to whatever suited them. 6.5 MM Mauser became 256 Rigby. 7MM Mauser became 275 H&H.
On the continent, they like to call cartridges by their bore size and case length with an R included for rimmed cases. So our .308 Winchester becomes 7.62x51. 30-30 Winchester becomes 7.62X51R.
Across the pond, British gunmakers adopted German cartridges for their rifles, but demurred at putting the Mauser name on a Holland & Holland or Rigby. They simply changed the name of the cartridge to whatever suited them. 6.5 MM Mauser became 256 Rigby. 7MM Mauser became 275 H&H.
On the continent, they like to call cartridges by their bore size and case length with an R included for rimmed cases. So our .308 Winchester becomes 7.62x51. 30-30 Winchester becomes 7.62X51R.