357 using 38+P
- Thread starter Jokerxx
- Start date
Any .38 Special ammunition, be it standard pressure, +P, or +P+ is perfectly safe to fire in a .357 Magnum revolver assuming the revolver is in good condition. The .38 Special's SAAMI maximum standard pressure is 17,000 psi while the maximum +P pressure is 20,000 psi. By comparison, the .357 Magnum's maximum SAAMI pressure (there is no such thing as .357 Magnum +P) is 35,000 psi.
.38 Special +P+ is not recognized by SAAMI and thus has no maxmimum pressure, but I've never seen nor even heard of commercially loaded .38 Spl +P+ reaching pressures in excess of 35,000 psi. Because of this, .38 Spl +P+ ammo is generally considered safe to fire only in .357 Magnum revolvers though there are a few exceedingly strong .38 Spl revolvers such as the so-chambered Ruger Security/Service/Speed Six and GP100 or S&W Models 20 and 23 that are exceptions to this (these revolvers are equally strong, or at least nearly so, to their counterparts in .357 Magnum).
The only way that I could possibly see a .38 Spl +P being unsafe to fire in a .357 Magnum revolver would be if the revolver were in such poor condition that it was unsafe to fire at all.
.38 Special +P+ is not recognized by SAAMI and thus has no maxmimum pressure, but I've never seen nor even heard of commercially loaded .38 Spl +P+ reaching pressures in excess of 35,000 psi. Because of this, .38 Spl +P+ ammo is generally considered safe to fire only in .357 Magnum revolvers though there are a few exceedingly strong .38 Spl revolvers such as the so-chambered Ruger Security/Service/Speed Six and GP100 or S&W Models 20 and 23 that are exceptions to this (these revolvers are equally strong, or at least nearly so, to their counterparts in .357 Magnum).
The only way that I could possibly see a .38 Spl +P being unsafe to fire in a .357 Magnum revolver would be if the revolver were in such poor condition that it was unsafe to fire at all.
Mike Irwin
Staff
OK, guys, enough discussion about credentials.
No one knows everything, even if we think that they should.
No one knows everything, even if we think that they should.
I could see the 110gr .38 Spl +P+ loads potentially causing problems with S&W K-Frames due to the thin spot at the six o'clock position in their forcing cones, but I doubt that they'd cause problems with most other .357 Magnum revolvers like S&W L and N-Frames, Rugers, or Colt I and V-Frames. Those revolvers seem to be able to tolerate 110gr .357 Magnum loads without too many issues, so I don't really see why 110gr .38 +P+ would be any harder on them.
Also, one of the most common .38 Spl +P+ loads that I see is Federal's 147gr Hyrda-Shok which I doubt would cause issues with any .357 Magnum revolver.
Bob Wright
New member
The star and rod on Smith & Wesson revolver is identified on parts list as the extractor and extractor rod. When the cylinder is opened pushing the rod extracts the fired cases. Punching it smartly ejects the fired cases.
I was referring particularly to the S&W Model 19 with 2 1/2" barrel. The normal length extractor rod could not be fitted to the short barrel, so a shorter rod was used. Even punching out fired .357 Magnum cases often left some of these stuck in the cylinder, not completely cleared of the gun. Using a shorter case (The .38 Special) allowed the cases to be completely ejected from the gun.
I apologize for any confusion I might have injected.
Bob Wright
Do NOT confuse .38 Special +P with .38 Special +P+. The former is slightly hotter than the standard .38 Special, but its pressure is only some 1500 psi higher; it is safe in any .38 Special revolver in good condition.
.38 Special +P+ has never been released for public sale; it was contracted for by the Federal LEAA and distributed through LE channels only, which is why it has no SAAMI pressure specifications. (Of course, some "leaked", but that does not make a difference.) It was intended to be fired only in revolvers chambered for the .357 Magnum, though it should be safe in a strong, modern .38 Special revolver.
Some say the .38 Special +P+ was a "political" round, to give LEO's a round nearly equivalent to .357 Magnum without the onus of the word "Magnum", which has caused problems in some communities.
(I have not been aware that the length of the revolver ejector rod was a factor; this is the first I have heard that idea. The ejector rod length is based on the barrel length, and most .38 Special revolvers with over 4" barrels have the same length rod as .357's of the same barrel length.)
Jim
.38 Special +P+ has never been released for public sale; it was contracted for by the Federal LEAA and distributed through LE channels only, which is why it has no SAAMI pressure specifications. (Of course, some "leaked", but that does not make a difference.) It was intended to be fired only in revolvers chambered for the .357 Magnum, though it should be safe in a strong, modern .38 Special revolver.
Some say the .38 Special +P+ was a "political" round, to give LEO's a round nearly equivalent to .357 Magnum without the onus of the word "Magnum", which has caused problems in some communities.
(I have not been aware that the length of the revolver ejector rod was a factor; this is the first I have heard that idea. The ejector rod length is based on the barrel length, and most .38 Special revolvers with over 4" barrels have the same length rod as .357's of the same barrel length.)
Jim
Last edited:
On the S&W medium frames, models with barrels of 3" or longer have the full-length ejector rod. On the 2.5" models, it's shorter. It is more difficult to get positive ejection with the shorter one. It's doable, but you've got to push it all the way in, and that can be tricky under stress.
Bob Wright
New member
This was one of the considerations for those who carried the 2 1/2" Model 19 S&W, a .357 Magnum revolver. As I recall this came up about the time of the "Sky Marshal" program. Just stuck in the back of my memory.
Bob Wright
Mike Irwin
Staff
" It was intended to be fired only in revolvers chambered for the .357 Magnum, though it should be safe in a strong, modern .38 Special revolver."
Federal 158 SJHP +P+ was the US Park Police service round for quite a few years in their S&W Model 10s.
They didn't, however, qualify with that round.
Federal 158 SJHP +P+ was the US Park Police service round for quite a few years in their S&W Model 10s.
They didn't, however, qualify with that round.
Mike, that is interesting. I'd certainly not fire any +P+ in a Model 10 
At least not if I owned it and had to pay for repairs. Why the heck didn't they just issue real .357 Magnum revolvers if they needed that much power out in the woods?
And I am still not sure if I should fire the +P+ in my late-model Heavy Duty, which is, after all, an N-frame. I cannot be sure if that rather big cylinder had the same heat treating as the Model 27 and 28 guns from the '50s (or the pre-model numbered ones) but it is still a lot of steel around each chamber.
So we can agree that the pressure of a +P+ might be as much as a real .357 Magnum cartridge? That might tend to make me not fire those in the Heavy Duty.
Bart Noir
At least not if I owned it and had to pay for repairs. Why the heck didn't they just issue real .357 Magnum revolvers if they needed that much power out in the woods?
And I am still not sure if I should fire the +P+ in my late-model Heavy Duty, which is, after all, an N-frame. I cannot be sure if that rather big cylinder had the same heat treating as the Model 27 and 28 guns from the '50s (or the pre-model numbered ones) but it is still a lot of steel around each chamber.
So we can agree that the pressure of a +P+ might be as much as a real .357 Magnum cartridge? That might tend to make me not fire those in the Heavy Duty.
Bart Noir
JamesK- I bought a box of +P+ ammo many years and fired it through a couple of revolvers. It was sold through commercial outlets and carried no warning about "LEO Only." It was fairly unimpressive, by the way. The 110 JHP clocked 1,100 from my 4" guns. My usual carry load is a 125 at 1150.
It is true that there is no industry standard on +P+ and the manufacturer can load it to whatever level he chooses. It would be wise to find out the chamber pressure of a factory load before using but I sort of assume nobody in his right mind would sell ammo to cops or anyone else that was truly hazardous in a well made gun.
It is true that there is no industry standard on +P+ and the manufacturer can load it to whatever level he chooses. It would be wise to find out the chamber pressure of a factory load before using but I sort of assume nobody in his right mind would sell ammo to cops or anyone else that was truly hazardous in a well made gun.
History suggests that +p and +p+ ammo was designed for LEOs who were mandated to carry 38s only, or to carry 357s but could only load them with 38s, no magnums, for political reasons.
Cops would typically still qualify with the lower pressure 38s. And they sure didn't routinely practice with them (lots of cops don't practice at all). The high pressure rounds weren't really made to be routinely fed through a 38 frame. They were meant to be fired MAYBE once or twice in the lifetime of the gun. With that in mind, I'd have to guess that a plain jane model-10 could certainly fire a double tap or two of +P+ or even higher pressure ammo without self destructing. It may not be prudent to feed a model-10 a steady diet of +P+. But a box of rounds or so in the gun's lifetime would surely not cause failure or even problems.
Sgt Lumpy
Cops would typically still qualify with the lower pressure 38s. And they sure didn't routinely practice with them (lots of cops don't practice at all). The high pressure rounds weren't really made to be routinely fed through a 38 frame. They were meant to be fired MAYBE once or twice in the lifetime of the gun. With that in mind, I'd have to guess that a plain jane model-10 could certainly fire a double tap or two of +P+ or even higher pressure ammo without self destructing. It may not be prudent to feed a model-10 a steady diet of +P+. But a box of rounds or so in the gun's lifetime would surely not cause failure or even problems.
Sgt Lumpy
Crankgrinder
New member
I know its already been discussed, but to simplify the order of power goes as follows: .357, then .38+p, then standard .38. Yes .38 +p is good to go in a 357 revolver, by a long shot.
Hi, Saxon Pig,
I skipped the middle-man and bought +P+ directly from some state cops who needed money. (Like I said, it "leaked".)
FWIW, here is what one of my boxes says:
The front of the box is marked:
Winchester-Western
CALIBER .38 SPECIAL
110 gr. JACKETED HOLLOW POINT
FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT USE ONLY NOT FOR RETAIL SALE
PRESURE LEVELS EXCEED INDUSTRY STANDARDS
The back reads:
WARNING - These cartridges are loaded to U.S. Treasury Department specifications which require higher velocity and higher pressure than conventional .38 Special cartridges. They are designed for use by law enforcement agencies only in modern alloy steel revolvers. DO NOT USE in aluminum cylinder or aluminum frame revolvers. If doubt exists as to safe use in your firearm, check with the firearm manufacturer. Maximum average pressure is 15% higher than industry +P standard (approximately 23,500 CUP)
[SAMMI spec for standard .38 Special is 17,000; +P was originally 20,000 but has been reduced to 18,500.]
Headstamp is W C C 74 in military style.
I reloaded a fair number and the nickel plated cases are thicker than the regular .38 Special, like .357 cases.
Jim
I skipped the middle-man and bought +P+ directly from some state cops who needed money. (Like I said, it "leaked".)
FWIW, here is what one of my boxes says:
The front of the box is marked:
Winchester-Western
CALIBER .38 SPECIAL
110 gr. JACKETED HOLLOW POINT
FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT USE ONLY NOT FOR RETAIL SALE
PRESURE LEVELS EXCEED INDUSTRY STANDARDS
The back reads:
WARNING - These cartridges are loaded to U.S. Treasury Department specifications which require higher velocity and higher pressure than conventional .38 Special cartridges. They are designed for use by law enforcement agencies only in modern alloy steel revolvers. DO NOT USE in aluminum cylinder or aluminum frame revolvers. If doubt exists as to safe use in your firearm, check with the firearm manufacturer. Maximum average pressure is 15% higher than industry +P standard (approximately 23,500 CUP)
[SAMMI spec for standard .38 Special is 17,000; +P was originally 20,000 but has been reduced to 18,500.]
Headstamp is W C C 74 in military style.
I reloaded a fair number and the nickel plated cases are thicker than the regular .38 Special, like .357 cases.
Jim
It is doubtful that S&W would give the green light due to the lack of SAAMI standard for +P+ ammunition. Because +P+ ammunition can be basically whatever the person loading it sees fit, S&W has no way of knowing that Billy Bob's "boutique" .38 +P+ loads don't exceed .357 Magnum pressures.
That being said, if we're talking about .38 +P+ ammo loaded by a reputable manufacturer like Federal or Winchester, I wouldn't be afraid to shoot it in a post-war S&W N-Frame that's in good condition (I'm assuming yours is).
I very highly doubt, almost the the point of certainty, that any .38 +P+ ammo loaded by reputable manufacturers generates more than 35,000 psi because, if it did, then it would be unsafe to fire even in .357 Magnum guns. While the manufacturers don't generally make such information widely available, the pressure specs that I've usually seen quoted for Winchester and Federal .38 +P+ ammo are around 25,000 psi which, while certainly well above .38 +P, are nowhere near that of .357 Magnum.
Also, you must understand that the .38/44 loads of decades past came very near to or even meet the .357 Magnum loads of today. For decades a popular .38/44 load was Kieth's recipe of his Lyman #358429 bullet (170-175gr depending on the alloy its cast from) over 13.5gr of Hercules (now Alliant) 2400. Many notable people including Elmer Kieth, Skeeter Skelton, and John Taffin have used this load extensively in .38/44 heavy duty revolvers and Taffin has even admitted to sparing use in S&W J-Frames (he's a much braver man than I
).Now, my Lyman 48th edition Reloading Handbook also lists 13.5gr 2400 with the #358429 bullet, but as a .357 Magnum Maximum load. Now, I'm not suggesting that you go out and try to shoot .357 Magnum max loads in your revolver, rather I'm using this data as a point of reference. If revolvers such as yours are well known for being able to handle what is today considered to be a max .357 Magnum load, I very highly doubt that commercial .38 Spl +P+ which is loaded to no greater, and in all likelihood substantially lower pressure is going to be problematic.
Cheapshooter
New member
So what is the 38 Special gun you bought the ammo for in the first place. If It is of modern design, manufactured within the past few decades, and in good working order It may well also be just fine for using the +P ammo in.
When I was young and stupid (a couple of years ago), I loaded .38 Specials up around 40000 PSI or a little higher, using 158 grain hard cast bullets and more Blue Dot than I care to admit. The brass didn't like it; I ended up with case head separations. But both my Security Six and Taurus Gaucho were fine with it.
I'm not recommending you do the same, just saying *any* commercial ammo you buy in .38 Special brass will be OK in a .357 Security Six, even if you find some old .38/44 Hi-Vel stuff left over from the 1930's.