357 Sig THE up and comming caliber !

Status
Not open for further replies.
Mike H,

Your statement that "No Kb's for reasons other than not going into battery have been
reported in any 9mm or .380 pistol (models 17, 17L, 18, 19, 25, 26 and 28)," is not quite correct. Search the archives for "Glock Kabom" and my user name, TaxPhd, for an account of a KB in a G19.
 
The 357 SIG ammo does NOT work well in ALL Glock 40 mags BTW; have to do a function check to be sure. The mags ARE different. I have seen/heard of more than a few problems with this in the Glocks. Lucky me, my 40 hicaps work fine in my guns. Check yours to be sure.

The newest Glock 10 round mags have been upgraded and load to the full ten much easier BTW. If you need more than 10, you need help. :)

G19 ain't perfect either. NYPD had so many problems with theirs they almost dropped them completely. They did drop the SIG P226 by the way. :)

NYPD seems quite happy with them now and their new Speer 124 Gold Dot +P duty ammo.

Guns aren't perfect. I can tell you horror stories about ALL of them. How about the mod SIG made cuz somebody dropped the slide and a round went off?

You will be throwing rocks if you decide to carry only the perfect gun. :)

------------------
>>>>---->


[This message has been edited by BrokenArrow (edited October 03, 1999).]
 
As far as the .357 SIG being a solution to a nonexistent problem, I seem to recall the same being said about the 40 when it debuted.
True SIGs are not perfect, but they do not claim that they are unlike Glock "Perfection". I am not looking for flames here, I have owned a Glock 21 and I thought it was very accurate, and I liked the high capacity. It was a good pistol except for the way it would constantly lock open with rounds in the mag. SIGs have their share of problems too, but I have never seen one attributed to my gun.
So maybe a +p+9mm and a .357 SIG are about equal, but imagine a +p+ .357 SIG.
The SIG round has its' merits, but it not the be all end all of pistol rounds.
 
The posts about the 357 SIG are interesting to say the least, I dont have one, but I am looking for one, I dont want a Glock, here after refered to as "G" only. I recently had the opportunity to shot the Sig issued by Tx DPS and I was impressed. The 357 Sig cartridge is a hot little number. I have been shooting S&W revolvers and Colt 191l's for too many years and have decided to go modern for at least a moment. I may junk it after I get it but I'll try one on. I plan to carry this new Sig of mine every day on duty in a pancake holster, I can handle full size hand guns with no problem, such as the 1911 I now carry. The DPS Sig is the only one I've ever handled or shot, I dont recall the model but it is full size, what does Sig have to offer in something equal in size to the Colt Commander. And what is kb that I read about here? And BROKEN ARROW, how do you know Mike Dunlap at Amarillo PD, last I heard he was going to try for the range officers job, that was over ten years ago. Thanks,,,Texaken
 
Texaken,

KB is short for Kaboom, usually in reference to a Glock pistol blowing up.

While any pistol has the potentail to KB, it seems that the majority of these are in Glocks. While many reasons are given to explain why a KB occured (reloads, bad reloads, wrong powder, unsupported chamber, the ability to fire out of battery, lead bullets, weak brass, etc.), the fact remains that they do occur. And more often than they should.

And just so that I can stay on topic, count me among those who "just don't get it" with regards to the .357 Sig. If you want .357 mag ballistics in an auto, there is already an existing autopistol cartridge that appears to accomplish what the 357 Sig does, and that is the 9X23. And it does it with greater magazine capacity.

I just don't get it.



[This message has been edited by TaxPhd (edited October 03, 1999).]
 
TaxPhd,,,Thank you, I really felt like it was some kind of acromyn for a fubar dealing with a case blow etc. I'm not head over heals in love with the 357Sig by any means but I want to be open minded enough to give it a try. I think the 45ACP will do anything I need as far as a handgun is concerned short of hunting. The nature of handgunning is in my opinion one of experimenting and trying new things to see how it might work for you(me). I dont have any real need for a new gun or cartridge for that matter, its just something I want to try. Like the 40S&W in a Colt Commander I'm having built. Who knows, it might just be fun.,,,Texaken
 
Does anyone know what handgun chambered for the .357 SIG round the United States Secret Service uses now? SIG? Glock?
 
Hiya Shamster.

I know you are a Glock fan, and so am I. I am still interested in trying out your G31....I have some Cor-Bon 115gr. on hand....

Anyway, the USSS will switch to the Sig P229 chambered in 357SIG. I believe they were using Sig P228 in 9mm. I am not sure if they are completely switched to the 357SIG; Winchester is currently in a Million round production of the 125gr. LE Ranger Talon for them.

The USSS is exclusively using Winchester Ranger, they are their sole ammunition supplier for 357SIG. This is not even available to the LE community yet. Hopefully, they tell me by the first of the year distributors should have it (USSS comes first). I will have to keep checking with Ray's.

Keep in toch.
 
Hi Taxphd: Speaking of 357 SIG and 357 Magnum ballistics, doesn't anybody remember the Super 38? Introduced in the Colt Auto Pistol for 1929...

So we're only 70 years down the road and it's like deja vu all over again... IMHO most "new" cartridges are created by the marketing department, not because there is a true need for them. Any of the 9mms will pretty much do what any of the other 9mms will do, despite manufacturers claims. None of 'em equal the larger auto pistol calibers (read "10mm or 45ACP".

------------------
Remember: When you attempt to rationalize two inconsistent positions, you risk drowning as your own sewage backs up... Yankee Doodle




[This message has been edited by BigG (edited October 04, 1999).]
 
Hmmmm those Ranger Talons are supposed to be the hot dog PD round of the moment (in any caliber).

It ain't fair, the cops not only get bigger mags than us, but they get better bullets too, are our bad guys less tough than theirs ? Just thought I fancied a moan.

Dis-Satisfied of Pennsylvania
 
Mike Dunlap was the range officer last time I talked to him (probably a couple yrs ago). Someone pointed me toward him for kBs on duty info; had a bunch.

The 357SIG is here because a LOT of people who used the Magnum and switched to the "proven" 45 were NOT impressed, like Texas DPS. And it is way above anything you can get from 9mm. And it will fit in smaller frame guns than the 38 Super and 9x23.

9x23? From a 5 inch 1911 it does 1460 fps. My Glock 32 4 inch hits 1425 with the Cor Bon and Gold Dot and holds 11-14 rounds in a smaller(and better)gun. :)

------------------
>>>>---->
 
Food for thought...

I would venture to say that Glock has sold more poly frames than any other manufacturer.

If a poly gets a KB, there is going to be more damage.

If more damage occurs, more people are going to talk about it.

I wonder if this has any effect on the amount of Glock KB's we are hearing about.

BTW, what SA has a fully supported chamber?
All of mine have some material missing where the ramp meets the chamber. Anything out there I can look at so I can compare the differences?
How does a Glock fire out of battery? What is the mechanical condition that makes this possible in a Glock but not in other guns?
 
Porter -- re your question about supported chamber barrels. Para Ordnance for one will give you something to compare. Also a lot of replacement 1911 "Match" barrels offer the option of a ramped barrel that is fully supported. Don't know how popular these are because the 1911 frame has to have material milled away to allow room for the ramp that's on the barrel, but you might find one of these around for comparison.
 
In regards to the Texas DPS switching to the .357 Sig, first of all, not all of them shot the .45, some shot 9mm and some shot .45 etc and they wanted a gun that would fit the smaller hands but handle obstacles like auto glass.
In regards to the .45 "not giving them the performance they wanted, that is an Ed Sanow quote (the king of little, fast bullet lovers). I think that these quotes from another site address these so-called "failures" of the .45.

"Sanow speaks of three cases involving the .45 and never does he show it "failed", just that most bullets lose about 100 FPS when going through car doors etc, and that the DPS wanted more velocity. Over half of their shootings involve shooting into or through cars, so it makes sense. Although, if they were worried about 100 fps, they could just shoot +P's (and, in one sentence that is easy to miss, Sanow states that the +P .45 is still available to Officers if they choose to carry it over the .357 SIG, and that it solves the velocity problem but has more recoil). The DPS said that, out of their full size service guns, they were getting only 815 FPS. That tells me they were using some really slow, lightly loaded .45 ammo.

One incident cited said the .45 went through a window, then through a leather vest and clothing, and then into the BG, and did not expand and "did not affect him fast enough" (no more was said, so who knows what that means....exactly what is "fast enough"?....this isn't the movies, people don't just keel over dead *instantly* from a single pistol bullet wound to COM).

The other case was where the .45 hit a stack of business cards and a wallet as well as clothing and failed to expand. The BG was attacking the Officer with a hatchet. The BG, upon being hit with the .45 that did not expand, immediatly stopped attacking and sat down and collapsed. Sounds like the SINGLE SHOT did a very good job to me if it stopped a madman with a hatchet in his tracks. Most bullets, no matter how fast, would have a very high likelyhood of not expanding after going through a stack of thick paper, a wallet and clothes. Would a single shot from a smaller caliber have stopped him in his tracks even if it did expand? What if it did not expand?
Never the less, a SINGLE SHOT from an apparently lightly loaded (815fps) 230gr .45, that did not expand due to multiple obstructions, took a lunatic who was attacking an officer with a hatchet, and stopped him dead cold in his tracks.
Is that "bullet failure"???


The third and final incident was a point blank shooting where the officer fired one shot (again, just one single shot) and the bullet did not expand (not that surprising from a 230gr bullet at the low velocities they were shooting) . Once again, the bullet did not have "immediate effect", whatever that means. But, the BG was trying to grab the gun from the officer, and upon being shot that one time, he was stopped and the officer was saved. The bullet did exactly what it was supposed to do, it stopped the attack. I would consider that a "stop" and not a falure (?).

The second guy who attacked officers with a hatchet sat down, collapsed, and stopped his attack immediatly, so I am also wondering what these people mean by "not a fast enough effect".
Also, all these people were only shot ONCE, which is kinda rare in defensive shootings. It sounds to me like the .45 did a very good job since all officers walked away unharmed and apparently all the bullets, from ONE shot, stopped the BG, even if it wasn't "fast enough", whatever that means, because apparently it incapacitated them fast enough that none of the officers were hurt.

I did not see anything about the .45 "failing" at all in the article. It seemed more to me that they wanted a round that was easier to qualify with for everyone, but still packed a punch. I doubt that the option was there to require them all to carry a more powerful .45, because then many officers would not be able to qualify with it. (And, what the heck, they probably wanted the free guns too). This gives them free guns, and is good publicity for Sig and their cartridge.

The DPS stated that they wanted to find a bullet that performed the same as the "proven" 125gr .357, which in their tests is 13" of penetration and .47" to .52" of expansion. And how is that any better than a .45 that does not expand? It does not make sense to me, although they did go with the Gold Dot which expands to .61" in gelatin according to their tests, on a good day."

Sorry for that long quote, but I thought it was better than I could have written.



------------------

Drink Red Bull, it'll give you wings!
 
BrokenArrow,

I'm not going to jump in on a Glock vs. 1911 debate - I'll let someone braver than me do that! :)

But your point of magazine capacity isn't fair. To compare a Glock (or any hi-cap frame) to a single stack is an apples to oranges comparison. Let's look at apples to apples. My Caspian hi-cap will hold 19 rounds (of 38 super, supercomp, or 9x23) in a standard length (seats flush with the base of the grip - no extended base pads) magazine, is thinner across the grip than a Glock or a standard 1911, and if you want a 4 inch gun, put on a commander length barrel and slide.

I still don't get the hype over the 357 Sig.

Or is it that since Glock chose to chamber a gun in it, and Glock is "perfection," the 357Sig must also be perfection?? :)
 
I've been toying with the idea of picking up a 32 along with 23 barrel but have decided to wait for(if it ever makes it) a 36. Already have a 26 and 35 along with a HK 9 Compact. Love shooting the HK and find it more accurate than my 26. The 26 however is MUCH more concelable and IMHO, Glock makes the perfect defensive carry pistol.

Glocks are easy to hate. No biggie..each his own for whatever....If I want a pretty gun, I'll pick up a Kimber(which I plan on doing also).

I don't own a .45 yet but for all the naysayers, do you remember why the .45 was introduced in the first place?? Also why were the LA PD wanting .45's after that big shootout a few years back?

Hell I like ALL calibers of handguns...talk about stopping power to the poor store clerk up here in MA that was gunned down with a .22. Placement still counts a little.......

------------------
"any color worm will do as long as it is purple"
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top