.357 question

T

Tony Z

New member
I'm having a bit of trouble cycling .38 Special light loads through my Henry Big Boy steel carbine. The load is a 125 grain JHP over 4.6 grains of Unique. Shoots well, but about 2 out 5 hang up and I'm thinking the length may be a bit short.

Using the same mixture in a .357 case instead of a .38 Special length case, does anyone foresee any problems?
 
does anyone foresee any problems?
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Yes, you are dropping the pressure even more because of the extra length of the 357 case. Since the bullet is the correct caliber, I would just use a 357 Mag load in the 357 cases.

I do not use Unique powder, so I can not help you there.

Stay safe.
Jim
 
You really shouldn't be shooting 125gr jacketed bullets as light as you already are. Going to a larger case could be the tipping point. You should be loading about 5.6 or so in a 38 case for a standard (non+P)38 spl load. If you are going to use a 357 case, I'd bump it up to 6.0gr Unique, and you'll still be sub 38 +P. If you are going to load ultra lights, you need to go to a cast bullet and still watch minimums.
 
Many of the lever actions are cartridge length sensitive. I know my Rossi 1892 likes .357 cartridges better than .38spl.

You might be able to load your current load in the .357 case. With a larger case volume, you might experience somewhat lower velocities, and, with Unique, perhaps less complete combustion. You could switch to a slightly faster powder if Unique turns out to be too slow for that load in the .357 case. Or increase the charge amount slightly. (as has been suggested already).

I shoot ALOT of .38spl in a Uberti 1873 clone and it works fine with a COL of about 1.5 inches. But my Rossi, when run fast, (think CAS) like the longer .357 cartridges.

Another option is to seat your bullet further out in the .38spl case. I crimp 125g bullets between the crimp groove and the lube groove, giving a longer COL than normal with the .38spl case. Oh, I see you are shooting JHPs. That may not work then. I'm shooting lead/coated bullets.

If you are just plinking (inferred from your reference to "light loads") then you should consider switching to a faster powder (bullseye, 700x, clays, clay dot, etc) and cheaper lead bullets. Faster powders will burn cleaner in both .38 and .357 cases at light loads.

A lot of the Cowboy Action shooters (CAS) have done work on their lever actions to manage the cartridge length issue. There is a great explanation here.
http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/togglelink.pdf

and lots of discussion of the issue on the SASS forum: (one of many threads)

http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=227765&hl=+cartridge++length#entry2955828

Hope that helps.
 
I don't know if your rifle is a lever, semi auto etc.

If it is a semi auto, you probably are going to have to use a slower burning powder. On a Ruger .44 mag, semi auto I had to slow down from Unique. I think I went to 2400 or Blue Dot.
 
I always try and stick with a published load that will produce a minimum 800-850 fps in a revolver to avoid a stuck bullet in my handgun caliber carbines. Especially when using the faster burning powders like Bullseye, W231 and Unique. I agree with TimSr, you are inviting a squib/stuck bullet with your 4.6 load in .357 cases(probably in .38 cases also).
 
I load 2.8g 700x under a 125g coated soft lead FPTC (brinel 12) bullet. 600fps from a 5.5inch revolver and about 800fps from my Uberti 1873 clone rifle. .38 spl case, CCI or Winchester small pistol primer, crimped solidly with a COL of 1.45 to 1.5. You can go down to 2.6g or 2.7g but my powder measure starts to get flaky and risks dropping a 2.4 or 2.5g charge. May not be a factor for you, but it's below the power factor for my purposes (CAS). Other fast powders can give similar results, Clays is another powder that loads nearly identically (i.e., same charge weights).

I load the exact same charge in .357 cases (same bullet and primer) as well with similar ballistics.

If you are really looking for a subsonic round out of a rifle, you can start with 2.6g or 2.7g and work down.

this talk of squibs is not an issue with a coated or lubed lead bullet unless you totally forget the powder. Plated or jacketed, they do have a point.
 
4.6 grains of Unique is already below minimum(5.1) for a jacketed 125 out of .38 Special.
Like sawdustdad says, most lever action .357's just don't like .38 Special cases.
If you use correct .38 Special data in a .357 case you should be fine though. However, if you want a light target load it won't be with a jacketed bullet.
I'd use a cast RN in a .357 case with .38 data. But not a 125.
 
Ideas for a subsonic, low pressure load?
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I use poly coated cast lead for my light 357 loads in my carbine. Right now my load is a Blue Bullets coated .358" 125 RN over 4.2 grains of Bullseye, subsonic in my 22" Handi rifle. You might look for a flat point with a crimp groove for your lever gun, but the coated bullets are great for plinkers in a 357 carbine. Use lead data and magnum brass.
 
First (answered some earlier posts), Lyman 47th Edition shows a Hornady 125 grain JHP load, starting at 4.0 grains of Unique.

Second, Hammerhead: what is the brand name for your poly-coated bullets (Blue?)? Your suggestions are what I was looking for! Thanks!
 
Stick with published loads....and make sure your bullets have a cannelure on them ...(most plated bullets do not have it ).

I load the same 158gr FMJ Montana Gold bullet...in all of my handguns for .357 mag ...and in my Henry lever action.../ but without the cannelure on the bullet, you risk serious bullet setback - like you get from a kinetic bullet puller.

Don't go below ...or above published loads.
 
It seems a number of responses had which case worked and which didn't reversed. I assume by hang-up you are referring to feeding from the lever gun and not to bullets stuck in the bore. The .38 Special case is 0.135" shorter than the .357 Magnum case, but the maximum COL is only 0.040 different. Bullets made for use in both cartridges therefore have two crimp cannelures 0.095" apart. Bullets made only for .357 have a crimp cannelure that will take you that same 0.095" below .38 Special maximum COL if you use it, as well as raising pressure for an identical charge (though not by too much with your mild load). That shortness can allow the rim of the next round to enter the carrier over the nose of the round that"s supposed to be there and interfere with feeding, if that's what you have going on. The solution is a bullet with a crimp cannelure in the right place for .38 Special cartridges.
 
When I used Unique in my lever gun, I used 6.0 grains in a .357 case. Not a barn burner, just a mid range load. Worked quite well.
 
That's correct: cartridge not loading. I had no issue with loads not firing.

As far as following published loads, I've been reloading for roughly 40 years now, and don't know of any load I've tried that was not in a load book by Lyman or similar. Even when perusing loads, such as those published by Ken Waters in "Pet Loads", I still referred back to manuals.

My original question was one I have not seen any guidance for: can the same recipe be used in a .357 case, that is used in the shorter .38 Special case? I did note higher charges of Unique for the .357 case as opposed to the .38 case.

Thanks for answers given and for any additional, now that I've explained myself a bit better!
 
My original question was one I have not seen any guidance for: can the same recipe be used in a .357 case, that is used in the shorter .38 Special case? I did note higher charges of Unique for the .357 case as opposed to the .38 case.
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I do this all the time. Same charge in both .38spl and .357mag cases. These are low power, fast powder plinking loads with soft lead bullets.
 
Same as sawdustdad here. I've got a variety of .357 Rossi and Marlin lever actions that prefer .357 length cartridges over the .38 Specials. I routinely use light .38 Special loads in .357 brass. I get the same velocities out of either cartridge case. The .10" case length difference doesn't make any measurable difference over my Chrony.

I typically use light Unique and 231 loads, been awhile since I've loaded any, don't remember them offhand. I'll try to remember to look at them tomorrow.
 
Use magnum cases. For a good light load, that is also known to be the most clean shooting load you can get. Use Trail Boss. You can even make a good dipper using a cut down .38 Spcl. case. It also meters very well in a volumetric powder measure.
 
First (answered some earlier posts), Lyman 47th Edition shows a Hornady 125 grain JHP load, starting at 4.0 grains of Unique.
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...and that is shown to produce a velocity of 498 FPS from a 4'' universal receiver, when ued in a .38 special case. While that is enough speed to get the bullet safely out of a 4'' barrel, it may not be in a 20'' carbine. While longer barrels produce more velocity, they also produce more friction on the bullet, especially a jacketed bullet. Fast powders have a short pressure curve which does not always produce the best velocities in longer barrels. This is why, I suggest 800 FPS as a minimum for jacketed bullets from a carbine to prevent a stuck bullet. This is something that was taught to me years ago by my reloading mentor. Lead is slipperier and more forgiving, thus less likely to stick in the barrel under light loads. I do what makes me comfortable when reloading for my guns, you should do the same.

My original question was one I have not seen any guidance for: can the same recipe be used in a .357 case, that is used in the shorter .38 Special case? I did note higher charges of Unique for the .357 case as opposed to the .38 case.
Click to expand...

The answer is yes you can, but the larger volume of the .357 case may cause less velocity. It always has for me. My Rossi carbine feeds 125 jacketed .38s just fine, but I still prefer to use .357 cases...probably just because I have more of 'em around.
 
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