.357 magnum smack down!

[Webleymkv]

Some very good points have been made about advances in bullet construction. Simply put, the biggest reason that the .357 Magnum appeared to be so much better than most semi-automatic loadings at the time of Marshall and Sanow's 1992 book is that at the time revolver bullets were capable of things that semi-automatic bullets were not. By using a relatively soft lead nose, it was possible to initiate reliable expansion without using an overly fragile bullet. Such a bullet would not reliably feed in most semi-autos at the time so it was limited mainly to revolvers. Also, JHP's of the time needed relatively high velocities in order to reliably expand (this is clearly illustrated by the teething problems of early 147grn 9mm loadings). The .357 Magnum was able to attain these types of velocities without requiring extremely light-for-caliber bullets which would not penetrate well.

However, the majority of self-defense oriented improvements in bullets over the last 15-20 years has been geared towards the semi-automatic cartridges for two reasons. First, revolvers fell out of favor with law enforcement in the 80's and early 90's. The larger market for self-defense revolvers became small, easily concealed snubbies and many feel that the recoil of a full-power .357 Magnum in such a gun is excessive. Secondly, there really wasn't much need to improve the Magnum as even with very dated bullets it was already achieving the desired results. A look at some of the most commonly reccomended full power .357 Magnum loadings like Remington and Federal SJHP's, Winchester Silvertips, and Federal Hydra-Shoks will reveal that they are often anywhere from nearly 20 to well over 30-year-old designs. The only two premium bullets I can think of that are not so dated and are commonly used in full-power loadings are Speer Gold Dots and Hornady XTP's but even those have been around for over a decade. The other more recently developed .357 Magnum loadings like Winchester 180grn Partition Gold, Remington 165grn Cor-Lokt, Hornady 140grn LeverEvolution, and Federal 158grn Fusion are geared and marketed towards hunting or are like Remington 125grn Golden Sabers or Cor-Bon DPX and not loaded to the full power. Basically, it took 30+ years of improvement in JHP design for semi-automatics to be capable of the same type of performance already available with the .357 Magnum.

This does however bring up one of the nice things about the .357 Magnum: one does not need to be particularly picky about their bullet selection in order to get very good performance. Even with bullets that were developed in excess of 30 years ago like the famous 125grn SJHP's, the .357 Magnum can still give performance that compares favorably with the premium semi-automatic loadings of today. Also, when modern, premium bullets like Speer Gold Dots or heavier 140grn+ bullets are used, the .357 Magnum can offer reliable expansion with much deeper penetration than is common to most semi-automatic loadings.

 

[tipoc]

I made a mistype in my earlier post #33 I wrote the following...

In the 1992 book the .45acp R-P 230 gr. JHP has a 60.72 rating of one shot stops while the Winchester 9mm 115 gr. FMJ is slightly better with 60.81% of one shot stops.

The error was that this should be a 230 gr. FMJ round and not a JHP. Both rounds M&S cite were FMJ rounds.

tipoc

 

[stevedscross]

I think what the poster ment to ask in the beginning was "is there a round comparable to the old 125gr .357 load that was used and loved by alot of differant police?" If this is correct I would point to the person who posted about the .357 sig being devoleped. Now everyone has their personal opinions and some hate the "small and fast" concept. It should be noted that the Texas department of Public saftey did want a round that would duplicate the ballistics of the old 125 .357mag load. They wanted it for more than one reason however. Many people think that it was all about the so called "stoping power". Well anyone who has ever been in a few gun fights will tell you that rarely if ever does someone stop with one shot. It simply does not happen. It does not matter if that one shot is from a .45 or a .38. The only way to get as close as possible to that one shot shop is to have a gun/ cartrige combo that is shootable. Now lots of people can shoot a .45 better than anything, they will then in a gunfight probably get good hits and therfore stop the bad gun sooner. Others however do not shoot the .45 as well they in a fight will either miss or get hits in non vital areas.
So what Texas did was to try and find a gun that was shootable by the largest percentage of officers, combined with a cartriage that did massive damage like the old 125 .357 load and have a trajectory over longer range like the old .357 load. So what they did was go from the Sig Sauer P220 in .45acp to the Sig Sauer P226 in .357 sig. When they did this they found that higher numbers of officers where qualifying in fewer tries and higher scores. Now you don't have to know much to know that more hit in vital areas is better. So while the 45 may or may not be better with all things being equal, things are not equal, so in this case the .357 sig is a better choice.
Now it does not mean that one is always better than the other. despite what those die hard lovers of the .45 say, it is not always the best choice. Now it may be for you but some shooters just shoot some guns better than others. for instance I do not shoot a 1911 very well. Its just me, however I do shoot a Sig p220 and My H&K USP both in 45 very well. I also shoot the P226 in .357 sig very well. So not all choices fit all people. I personally think that I would rather take a 12+1 .357 sig over an 8+1 45. But I do not depend on the myths of the certian bullet to do the work. I find the best bullet in that caliber then I practice to get only good hits.
In Iraq I saw first hand how this matters. I was mad and hurting after just being shot. I saw the shooter and just started to hose him to no effect. then I remembered that I should be aiming. So I aimed and fired and put my rounds in the pryramid (the area formed by the nose and both nipples) then the bad guy went right down. So the not stopping of the insurgent was not the fault of the bullet it was the fact that I was not scoring proper hits on the target.
so although the 125gr .357 load may not be the absoult best round out there on a one bullet to one bullet contest most shooters cannot shoot something like a 200gr 44 magnum load more than once or twice with good accuracy. The 125gr load worked because it was the largest load that the majority of the officers could shoot accuratlly, and with some speed. What many big bullet Nazis seem to think is that because they have been shooting for so many years and they like their whatever, that it is the best. Most police are not shooters. The gun on their belt is just another peice of gear that they must carry. But they do not look to master the pistol. So should the novice be carrying a .44? Might they be better served by a slightly smaller caliber that they can shoot and get hits with?

 

[Webleymkv]

Since the .357 Sig has been brought into the discussion, I think there should be a couple of points made about that cartridge. It is true that the original intent of the .357 Sig was to duplicate the performance of the 125grn .357 Magnum loadings in a semi-automatic handgun. The original loadings of the cartridge were able to match the ballistics of the Magnum, but not the performance of the bullet. The problem was that the then-new Sig cartridge used .355" diameter 9mm bullets. While these bullets performed OK at 1100-1250fps, when launched at 1450fps they had issues with overexpansion, fragmentation, and shallow penetration.

These issues were resolved through two different means. First, tougher bullets like Speer Gold Dots and Hornady XTP's that were better able to hold up to the higher velocities were developed and secondly most manufacturers reduced the velocity of their .357 Sig loadings by 50-100fps to roughly 1350fps. The only manufacturers I'm aware of which still load .357 Sig ammo to its original velocity are Cor-Bon, Buffalo Bore, and Double Tap. While Buffalo Bore and Double Tap use tougher bullets, Cor-Bon .357 Sig loadings do have a tendency to fragment and penetrate rather shallowly.

This is not to say that the .357 Sig is a bad cartridge. Even at it's now reduced velocity, it still displays penetration and expansion characteristics similar to those fo the older 125grn Magnums it was designed to emulate. However, similar penetration and expansion characteristics can also be observed by many 9mm +P and +P+ loadings like Speer Gold Dots or Winchester Rangers. Modern .357 Magnum loadings like Speer 125grn Gold Dots are able to offer smilar expansion but significantly deeper penetration than the .357 Sig. Basically, after working through its teething problems the .357 Sig is able to accomplish nearly the same performance that the .357 Magnum was capable of 30 years ago.

 

[Mal H]

This "debate" is flawed in that it was started with an invalid question. There is no "king of the self defense pistol rounds". There being no "king", then it follows that there can be no replacement for the king.

These damned caliber "discussions" are tiresome, fruitless, and a waste of our storage space and bandwidth.

Closed.