.357 magnum smack down!

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Super-Dave

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Is the .357 magnum 125 grain jhp full power load out of a 6" barrel revolver still king of the self defense pistol rounds?

If it is or is not still king, what round comes close to dethroning the king?
 
That's not really a question, it's a bunch of statements/assumptions presented as fact but without corroborating evidence and then wrapped up to look like a question.
Is the .357 magnum 125 grain jhp full power load out of a 6" barrel revolver still king of the self defense pistol rounds?
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When was it "king", why is it important that it be shot out of a 6" barrel vs. a 4" bbl or maybe an 8 8/4" bbl, and what evidence did you use to determine these facts?
 
Whose gold standard? Clearly there were experts who didn't care for it or the 41 magnum/10mm/.41AE/40S&W would never have been invented.
 
8 8/4"
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I like the way you express this. I could totally use a similar schema on my GF. Baby it isn't a 4 inch barrel, it is 2 and 8/4 inch.

I think it was the "Gold Standard" for law enforcement back in the revolver days. I don't think it was the gold standard elsewhere. I think the 45 ACP has been the gold standard for shooters the better part of a century. When you get into law enforcement officers not everyone is a shooter though. Just my take not any references or anything to back that up.
 
A lot of the reputation of the 125grn .357 Magnum come from the Marshall/Sanow study which rated both Remington and Federal 125grn SJHP as a 96% one-shot-stopper. There are, however, issues with the M/S data including statistical errors and the lack of a controlled, scientific testing environment. However, given the copious amount of data that Marshall and Sanow had available to them regarding the .357 Magnum (it had been the preferred police cartridge for many years) I think it is safe to say that the 125grn SJHP is an excellent self-defense loading although I would not attach a solid numerical value to it in the way that Marshall and Sanow did.

As far as being the absolute best, I would not really give it that label. Personally, I think that the bigger Magnums such as .41 and .44 Magnum have the potential to be better so long as proper ammunition is chosen and the shooter can handle the recoil. Certainly I would take a well-place .357 Magnum JHP over a poorly placed .44 Magnum JSP, but if I can place a .44 Magnum JHP well then I view it as all the better. I view the .357 Magnum to be roughly equal to a full-power 10mm Auto.

Even in .357 Magnum, I don't particularly care for the 125grn JHP's. I prefer the heavier 140-158grn JHP loadings because they do not have quite so vicious muzzle blast and because they seem to be kinder to certain revolvers such as S&W K-Frames. My loading of choice in both of my .357 Magnum revolvers is Remington 158grn SJHP.
 
The 6 inch barrel can add up to 200 fps vs the 4" barrel
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Not exactly. There are to many other variables to make that generalization. BC gap, how tight is the bore of one gun versus another, etc.

My 4" Ruger consistently shoots 50-76 fps faster than my 5" Smith & Wesson when using the same cartridges even though it has a wider BC gap and a shorter barrel. ymmv
 
I like the way you express this. I could totally use a similar schema on my GF. Baby it isn't a 4 inch barrel, it is 2 and 8/4 inch.
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I was trying for 8 3/8" which makes a lot more sense but isn't nearly as humorous. :D
 
Webley was on the right track to answer the OPs question. I remember back in the day, reading numerous articles in the gun mags that stated through multitudes of testing, that this rounds test data showed that highest percentage of one shot stopping abilty amongst the group of acceptable carry weapons by law enforcement. I do not know what is considered the new "King" at this time though. I also remember reading a lot of storys about how ineffective the 9mm round proved to be in law enforcement shoot out scenarios which leads me to think maybe the .40 has taken it's place, just a guess though.

We'll keep the light on for ya.
 
Well... I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night... so take it with a ...

grain of salt :)

I used to shoot alot of 357 mag at farm yard varmints through my 4" GP-100... you would think that any loading would be plenty for a skunk, racoon, rat, feral cat, or opposum... & yes pretty much any load does kill them with a solid hit, but just shooting to center of mass, there can be a very big difference in how fast the critter stops between a 110 - 125 grain bullet, & a 158 - 180 grain bullet... I used to swear by 158 grain hollow points, but honestly, I had alot of critters crawl off to cover to die, leaving me smelling them in the farm yard for several weeks to a month afterwards... there really is alot to be said for high velocity fluid shock... I found that switching to the faster light weight bullets caused the critters to stop moving in a much shorter time than than the slower heavier bullets, allowing me to clean up & saving my nose

but that was with realitively small critters... & then why wouldn't a 50 caliber ( used for example ) with a bullet designed to perform / rapidly expand do an equally or better job ??? how fast does the bullet have to go, to get that hydrolic effect... how big does the critter have to get before additional penitration is needed ???

While high velocity shock is a good thing it isn't everything...

back when I 1st started dating my wife ( many years ago now ) I started hunting with her dad & friends... being the new guy in deer camp, for the 1st couple years, I got to field dress the bulk of the deer ( I guess they wanted to make sure I knew how or something :rolleyes: ) anyway I learned alot about wounds, buy looking at the amout of "blood shot" or bruised meat around the wound channel... one shooter shot a .243, almost everyone else up there shot 30-06, & the owner of the property a 300 Win Mag, ( I was the one that started out shooting the .243 ) & after getting "little gun grief" for several years, I switched to a Marlin 45-70... the .243 easily matched the 30-06 in bruised meat around the wound channel, even though the bullet was smaller in both weight & diameter... but the 300 Win Mag must have really been over kill ( if there really can be such a thing ) because it bruised meat several inches more, & sometimes as much as 5-6" from the wound channel, where bone was involved, while the .243 & 30-06 were normally more like 2.5 - 3"... my 45-70 while sounding like even more over kill, only bruised meat like 1.5 - 2" from the wound channel... but, while it damaged less meat on the dressed deer, it certainly wasn't any slouch at putting deer down, often slamming them to the ground on impact, something the .243 never really did for me...

so back to the handguns... what I learned dressing deer, coupled with my expiriences shooting varmints with the 357... yep those high velocity loads work... they do put the "smack down" on what they hit... but there is nothing magic about the 357, any cailiber capable of matching that bullet speed & of similar bullet design is going to do the job...

... personally I have a tendancy to gravitate towards the bigger bores, though I don't personally think typical bigger bore self defense handguns such as the 45 acp develope enough speed to get better shock performance than the small & light 357... but the magnum calibers certainly could & IMO do... but then there is also something that happens with those big slow bullets ( maybe is "how" the energy is transfered ??? ) but that 45 caliber bullet sure planted those deer... I'm betting a 45 acp with those "flying ashtrays" would plant a human sized target just like that 45-70 planted deer
 
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The 125 SJHPs by Remington were issued to us in the Reno Police Department by our Rangemaster, Vic Della, in the late 70s and early 80s. We all pretty much carried SW 19s, 28s, or a Python. We practiced with .38 semi wadcutters in the range in the basement on Wells Ave.
There's no doubt the .357 125gr is extremely effective, and since then the movement to auto handguns has changed the picture.
To date with all the changes my opinion about "the best stopper" remains with the .357 SJHP from Remington. It is a very hot load and anyone who has shot these out of their .357 should come away feeling how on earth anyone could survive being hit in the center of mass by one.
The revolver has taken a back seat these days in LE. Mostly because of the reloading issue and firepower. Besides these days a cop may be up against a gang or gang member with some assault rifle instead of any sort of handgun.

If I was a cop today the "one shot stop" statistic wouldn't be as important as being able to have a magazine with a lot of rounds (easily ejected and replaced with more) dangerous enough to do penetration and tissue damage.
The 9mm JHP going at full speed or possibly a .40 SW makes sense today. The problem with the .45 is only the magazine limitation along with the size and weight for me.

When the barrel gets out to 8 inches or so the velocity difference in the .357 actually slows down in some cases. I read chrony reports when I had an 8 & 3/8" 27 after my time in the RPD. I found out the barrel was probably a bit too long for the loads then in the 1980s. Today I am sure there are loads heavier that the longer barrel can take advantage of.

We had a few shootings with shooting boards in the RPD back then with the 125gr .357. I remember one instance where a cop shot a gunman in the calf and that stopped him cold. The bullet stayed inside his calf!

In another shooting a gunman lost half of his brain to a 125 and ended up dying in the hospital after a long time of being a vegetable.

I still think the 125 .357 is at least at the top of the list for a "one shot stop" along with anything else that has come along.

If one goes up in caliber to a .44 Magnum it seems like a better "one shot" deal but it really isn't. Most of that energy is expended on the other side of the individual getting shot with it. This is one reason why it is pretty hard to find a handgun bullet better than the .357 125, because it pretty much violently expends most of its payload fairly well in a human-sized target.

During my time qualifying at the range at RPD the "Newhall Incident" was the focus of our training with revolvers. As some may recall in California along 405 Freeway near Newhall a couple of Highway Patrol Officers were killed because they were not up to speed reloading their revolvers. One officer was found dead with empties still clutched in his hand because he got into the habit of collecting them instead of ejecting them all out onto the ground to reload.

Anyway, I have kept quiet so far about my former LE days because people react funny when they find out you've been or are a cop. Some sort of stigma that messes up relationships just like finding out someone is an ordained minister.

My time in the Army was as a Chaplain by the way. Now you all know a couple more things about me here and I hope it doesn't change your tone toward me!

Regards,
Pythagorean (was a math teacher as well--I am getting so old!)
 
I agree completely with Pythagorean.In the 1970's I carried a 5in S&W loaded with Rem.125 gr sjhp and felt very well armed.Today it's a Glock 23 with Fed.Hydra-shocks.Same feeling.All I can say to anyone is check out whats available and decide for yourself what will work best for you.It is afterall your life that you are defending and you should be the one that decides what gun,caliber,mode of carry,ect. works best for you.
 
pythagorean & MKK

I came out of that same LE era and the Remington 125g SJHP was indeed the "cream of the crop" in .357 ammo. One could shoot other brands but their performance, while good, wasn't as solidly reliable as the Remington round. At that, I recall reading it only expanded about 74% of the time.

Webleymkv
An excellent post. Despite the problems with M&S's conclusions, they amassed a lot of data and tried to put some kind of measurement on it to determine what really worked on the streets. I disagree with some of their conclusions and methods, as do others, it at least has a basis for rating how loads perform (as opposed to Buck at the gun shop done told me...). :p

I've never been in agreement with Ed Sanow about the importance of velocity over mass or diameter. My reading says that hydrostatic shock - a term freely used (and relied upon) by Sanow - doesn't really start to play a part in wound ballistics until about 2000 fps. Not too many handgun bullets will exceed 1800 fps, much less surpass 2000 fps. So comparing rifle ballistics to handgun ballistics is something of an apples/oranges comparison (sorry Magnum Wheel Man). Velocity can be important, but let's forget the "magic" of hydrostatic shock in handgun bullets.

I've been an unabashed fan of the .41 Magnum since ~1975 and the few shootings M&S documented with this caliber showed some very good results. In fact, the 210gr LSWC (1100 fps) showed better results than the 210gr JHP (1300fps). The LSWC "police" load was stout, but controllable. Something about like a mid-range 158gr .357 in a K-frame. With the LSWC load, one couldn't help feeling that you'd just launced a fence post downrange at your target. As I recall, I had collected clippings of six .41 Mag shootings with the LSWC and 5/6 were single-shot stops (83%). That's damn good for a small sample. But I suspect the users of the revolvers were probably more gun enthusiasts than your average police officer and their marksmanship might've been better.

My "magic number" is 525 ft-lbs. A round that generates that kind of energy (or more) seems to be enough to disrupt all but the toughest of opponents. And you don't get that performance out of most semi-auto pistols (the 10mm being the exception).

Shot placement is king. A .38 Special delivered to the aortic arch or the brain pan is better than a miss with anything and even better than a thigh-hit with a .357. And today's JHP ammo is far better than the ammo we had available in our duty guns in the 70's. In .357 Magnum, Speer Gold Dots would probably be my first choice but I wouldn't feel undergunned with the old 158gr LSWC-HP "FBI load" either.
 
BILL... it's alright if we disagree...

us shooters are all opinionated... if you don't agree with me, you're an idiot :eek: :p ( that was a joke BTW )

one thing I failed to get across when I said this...

but there is nothing magic about the 357, any cailiber capable of matching that bullet speed & of similar bullet design is going to do the job...
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is that the performance of the bullet matched the particular charictoristics generated by the bullets weight & velocity for each caliber...

as far as the bigger magnum calibers, if the bullets expansion, weight & velocity are such that the bullet just dropped out on the ground after exiting the targets backside, expending all of it's energy but a fraction of a percentage required to pop out the back side leaving 2 flesh wounds & bleed holes, there is no doubt in "my mind" the percentage on "one shot stops" would be higher than the Remington 125 grain 357...

... not said to at all diminish the right mix that Remington came up with on that load... just that if you started with more energy, & you can effectively get all the charges & components to as close to a perfect match as Remington did on the 125's you should have a more effective round...

that said... there are so many conditions in which a shooting can occure... the bad guy might be wearing a heavy leather "biker style" jacket, or just a T-shirt both situations would require a different "perfect load", no matter what the caliber or cartridge of choice...

I also aplaud the understanding that often for todays LEO's, they are undergunned & additional cartridges ( at the very least ) are needed... for my lifestyle, I'm pretty comfortable with a 5 round revolver...

... & that, that one shot stop must be at least a com shot... the 500 S&W likely won't do any good on a strung out junkie, if under duress & unable to control the recoil, the shot blows off the tip of the bad guys middle finger... point being, no matter what is used, it must be controlable enough to properly place those shots in the 1st place...
 
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