.357 Mag ...Period

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1873ME

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So i have been thinking lately, as most have about the shootings in Colorado.

Ive been thinking about how i would have handled that same scenario. I have wondered what i would do in that kind of envirnment, being in side a place where the exits where cut off for the most part. I have in fact , i wondered what i would do in a movie theater , if someone where to go nuts like that, way before this ever happened. As a CCW holder , im sure some of you have thought that same thing.

What im thinking now is, How do i defend against this BG with full body armor, Obviously im not going to take him down with a shot to the center mass. . I have to aim at legs, head shoulder...very hard to do im sure. Under pressure, under fire, with tear gas no less . So im thinking. what would cartridge could i carry to most effectively shut him down . First thing i think of is FULL HOUSE .357 Mag. Im talking .357 @ 1500+ FPS with 1300 pounds of energy at 25yards. that would help at the very least slow someone down.


So my next question is , after looking at all the .357 mag revolvers out there. sp101 3" , Model 60 pro 3"...has anyone CCW'd a chiappa Rhino 40ds. 4" .357mag?

6 rounds of .357, Flat wheel design, low , low recoil with full house loads, i think it could be a perfect situational ccw gun. my only question is , who has?
 
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Im talking .357 @ 1500+ FPS with 1300 pounds of energy at 25yards.
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A really, REALLY hot commercial .357Mag load tops out at somewhere around 800ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle of a full-sized revolver, not a typical CCW revolver. 1300ft/lbs is well beyond standard pressure .44Mag performance from a full-size revolver.

I would not like trying to fire an 800ft/lb .357Mag load out of a small CCW .357Mag revolver. Nor would I be at all confident that it would have any significant effect on someone wearing decent body armor. There's stuff out there these days that will reliably stop rifle bullets and will literally shrug off any pistol round.

A plan with a realistic chance of succeeding against a shooter like the one in the the CO shooting would involve body armor, a rifle with an illuminated sighting system and a similarly equipped accomplice. Anything else, barring amazing luck or world-class skill combined with moderate luck, isn't going to do anything other than provide a momentary distraction.
 
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=277

this is the load i am referring to. I agree, chances are slim to none that its going to work. I just want the best defense i can put up to bg's depending on where i am and what im doing. The conditions in that theater where so bad, i doubt anyone could make a clean shot in the right spot. besides flanking some how and and tackling the pos. But at the very least, like all ccw holders will say, id rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. I want to make the best shot, the most accurate shot i can. I realize the conditions were near impossible, his armor , the dark ,the tear gas. but Something is all i want...something is better than nothing.

All i want to know is who has the 40ds and who carrys the sucker? i thing its possible for sure.
 
this is the load i am referring to
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From a 4" or 5" revolver, per their testing, that load will get you about 700ft/lbs at the muzzle. From a CCW type revolver with a 3" barrel, you'll probably get closer to 630ft/lbs.

I believe you're looking at the chart that assumes a muzzle velocity of 2300fps. A 2300fps muzzle velocity might be possible with that loading from a rifle barrel although their testing with a 18" barrel rifle only provided about 2150fps.
I want to make the best shot, the most accurate shot i can. I realize the conditions were near impossible, his armor , the dark ,the tear gas. but Something is all i want...something is better than nothing.
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If I were looking to score a pinpoint hit at movie theater distances using a pistol under really taxing conditions, I probably wouldn't pick a small, low-capacity, hard-kicking gun. I've shot at small moving targets in broad daylight under ideal conditions with a full-sized pistol that had only moderate recoil and it took several shots to get a hit the first time I gave it a try.
 
You are correct on those stats, I was off. Looking at the wrong data.
However, the recoil with heavy loads is kinda my point. Where are the Chiappa rhino users? The recoil with full house loads (aka 1500-1600 fps) is supposed to be significantly less. And that would help give you a good shot under depress. Not saying it will save you or anyone else, that's already been established. Just saying it could give you the best shot out of most hand guns, unless I'm missing a caliber ... Which I'm sure I am 10mm included, but i still go back to the recoil management of the rhino...
 
I was thinking about a scenario facing a gunman with body armor and a rifle with only a handgun and yeah, I'm most likely screwed. My thought is to get a Crimson Trace laser grip where I could go for a head shot. Yes, this suspect had a helmet on, but the face was open. The face is always open and with hundreds of people around you could possibly line up a head shot without being noticed.
 
In that situation I would want 10mm with a 15 round mag or spare. Not a revolver but better for that situation IMO.
 
This situation was a nightmare, even if Batman himself were in that theatre. It's dark, room is filled with gas and flying bullets, confined spaces to move, ppl EVERYWHERE screaming/running in all directions or on the ground to trip over, and the perp is in corner with his back to the exit wearing all black/body armor/gas mask. He's got an AR-15 with 100rnd mag(not clip as media calls it<cringe>) AND Remington pump shotgun AND a cpl Glock 40's. Add in YOU ARE TERRIFIED, and you think in this situation you're going to compose yourself enough get a facial on this guy?
The media was saying for this guy having no training, he was a pretty good shot, I disagree. Ever see what a 5.56 round does to the body? How about a thigh shot?

Warning, link contains graphic content.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk153/cebuboy/gunshot/14042009091.jpg

Imagine anything over the waist. If you ask me, I think for as prepared and well armed as he was, that community was lucky it wasn't worse. What would I have done? Probably been scared stupid and done a George Castanza at the kiddie party.
 
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I don't think muzzle energy (exclusively) is what you should look for when your talking body armor and the 357.

A heavy hard cast 357 out of a 4in revo "may" penetrate some types of vests.

I bet a 187grn hardcast at 1300fps would at least get his attention.
 
Yeah, this is pretty much the no win scenerio. I carry when I go the movies, but usually a five shot .38 and I never wearing body armor, so there isn't much I could have done.

Once and while I carry a Glock 20 10mm Auto with Winchester Slivertips. It's Magnaported to keep recoil down. I understand it might penetrate a level II vest, but not level IIa or IIIa.

The criminal had armor on chest, his neck, plevis/groin and on his legs!!! I've also read reports he had a ballistic helmet. This guy even took drugs to relax before the shooting!

I'll get flamed, but I've had this discussion before with friends. Body armor is cheap and unregulated. (about $500 or $600 will get you level IIIa, that's cheaper than an AR-15!) Meanwhile, armor piercing handgun ammo is utterly illegal.

It was only a matter of time before someone purchased armor for an offensive purpose. Now that the cat is out of the bag, you can expect to see it again. The last time we saw this kind of thing was North Hollywood, but back then kevlar was a lot more expensive and harder to get.

The only way to win in this scenerio is to hide in place and shoot when the suspect gets close and hope it slows him down long enough to save lives.
That's really hard in a room full of chaos, though, and even then you might end up getting shot.

The other solution is not to be there.

I'm not blaming the victims AT ALL, but if I can't remember the last time I elected to be out past 2200. If it can't be done between 0600 and 2200, then I'll do it tomorrow. All of my other buddies that carry practice the same philosphy.

Best case scenerio, the movie starts at midnight and ends at 0200. Do you want to be in a crowded parking lot at 2 in the morning?
 
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Yes he had body armor and a hit from a hot 357 probably wont penatrate but it will knock the ever loving heck out of him. Really armor is to save your life not make, a a 9mm feel like your being hit with a nerf football.
A solid hit would do a number to the perp and buy vaulable time. Time to finish the job and/or get out.
 
Only thing I can think of--head/face shot with Taurus 4510 Judge/Public Defender (or similar S&W Governor), focusing on the .410/buckshot part, firing short barrel/pistol-specific .410 available now.

http://www.gunblast.com/Taurus-PD410.htm

Head/face shot perhaps with enough oomph, impact/spread (more than a single traditional pistol round), and sturm und drang--if not outright disabling him (maybe so, maybe no depending on distance), to at least "temporarily" disable/distract the BG "enough" in order for more folks to either get away/and or a survivor(s) to take him down. Of course better yet more than one person so equipped and even so, very difficult circumstance with this or any other handgun. A lot of assumptions with the above, none guaranteeing you'd have the physical wherewithal and mental composure to pull it off, but it's something.
 
The way I see it, you've got basically three different options depending on what type of body armor he's wearing. If the armor does not have hard trauma plates, you might be able to get through it using a small-diameter, high velocity cartridge with a hard, non-malleable bullet. Cartridges that would fit this description include 5.7x28 FN and 7.62x25 Tokarev. In a revolver, a .327 Federal Magnum from a relatively long barrel (4" or more) loaded with a light, non-expanding bullet might also fit this description.

If, however, the vest has hard trauma plates, it's very unlikely that any handgun cartrdige is going to penetrate it. These types of vests will stop many centerfire rifle cartridges up to and including 7.62x51 NATO and 7.62x54r unless armor-piercing ammunition is used. In this case, you might be able to stop him with non-penetrating blunt-force trauma. Even if a bullet is stopped by a vest, there's still a lot of force being applied. Among people shot while wearing body armor that stopped the bullet, injuries such as large bruises and broken ribs are not particularly uncommon. If you use a powerful enough cartridge, meaning full-tilt .41 Magnum or bigger, it possible that he might be incapacitated from internal bleeding or sheer pain. However, such blunt force trauma is not nearly as reliable in incapacitation as a penetrating bullet wound and would be something of a long shot.

The final option is to attempt a shot at an unarmored area such as the head or pelvis. This would probably be the most effective option but also the most difficult to accomplish particularly in a dark, smoke-filled movie theater. From what I've read, the shooter in this particular instance was armored head-to-toe and the only vital area that a normal handgun bullet might have been able to penetrate was through the gas mask into his face.

The whole situation was really one of the worst imaginable not only because of the shooters arms and armor, but also because of the environment. It would probably have been extremely difficult to shoot him, even if he'd been unarmored, whithout hitting an innocent bystander due to the poor visibility and large, panicked crowd. Truthfully, there probably wasn't any really good way that to deal with the situation if armed only with a handgun.

Originally posted by testuser
I'll get flamed, but I've had this discussion before with friends. Body armor is cheap and unregulated. (about $500 or $600 will get you level IIIa, that's cheaper than an AR-15!) Meanwhile, armor piercing handgun ammo is utterly illegal.
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Actually, that's not an unreasonable point. It should be pointed out, however, that the definition of armor-piercing handgun ammunition is very specifically defined in law and that there are ways to make handgun ammo penetrate armor without running afoul of the law. Case in point, standard FMJ 7.62x25 Tokarev ammo will penetrate up to Level II armor and possibly Level III if there's not hard trauma plate, but because it uses a standard lead core and copper jacket it's perfectly legal. Also, armor-piercing handgun ammunition is not illegal for the police, though no U.S. agencies that I know of use it on a regualr basis.

More to the point, however, even purpose-made armor-piercing handgun ammo is only effective to a point. I'm almost certain that most, if not all, of it wouldn't be effective against Level IV armor and may very well be ineffective against Level III armor with trauma plates. While it may not be a popular sentiment, I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to the requirement that someone pass a background check similar to that required for purchasing a gun from an FFL in order to buy body armor. Of course, given the situation, I could also see a convincing argument for removing the ban on armor-piercing handgun ammunition.
 
How about a normal CC pistol/revolver and learning to shoot.

Hunker down on the floor and take a good shot.

I practice a lot with this target using my 642.

Saying all that, I don't know what I'd do, I wasn't there. The only thing I can really relate to is when I was in SE Asia. I'd normally fire a few rounds as I got down and got on the sights. Way too different, then I didn't care about what was between me and the target.

Anyway I do a lot of dry firing and shooting, both in low light with the CT sight and bright light using my sights.

I don't know what I would have done, I doubt I'll ever find out, but still I like practicing at this target at differant ranges. Nothing else it helps gathering rabits for the pot when I'm out camping 'n such

http://photos.imageevent.com/kraigwy/pentest/100 Yard Hostage Target_1_.pdf
 
Yes he had body armor and a hit from a hot 357 probably wont penatrate but it will knock the ever loving heck out of him.
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Maybe, maybe not. Something that will stop a rifle bullet effectively will turn a hit from a pistol bullet into a mere annoyance. Even soft armor if it's layered sufficiently or backed with padding can soak up a lot of hits without the wearer being incapacited or knocked around.

Watch the videos of the North Hollywood shooting for a cold, hard dose of reality about going up against an armored man with a rifle while armed with a pistol. They took multiple hits and kept on shooting back effectively.
 
Watch the videos of the North Hollywood shooting for a cold, hard dose of reality about going up against an armored man with a rifle while armed with a pistol. They took multiple hits and kept on shooting back effectively.
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While you are correct that the blunt-force trauma of a handgun bullet to a vest is not a particularly reliable incapacitator, it is worth mentioning that the North Hollywood bank robbers took phenobarbital before the event. Phenobarbital is a CNS depreassant and, as such, can alter, diminish, or remove a user's perception of and response to pain. With a sufficiently powerful cartridge it is possible, though certainly not guaranteed, that a person not under the influence of drugs or alcohol may be incapacitated by the pain of being shot even if the bullet's penetration is stopped.

Of course, there is no guarantee that the pain inflicted would be sufficient to stop someone nor that the person wearing the armor is not under the influence of a drug like phenobarbital, thus the reason that blunt-force trauma from a bullet is not a reliable method of incapacitation.
 
I STRONGLY agree testuser,webley, owning body armor changes what level of damage you can do perhaps more than owning a full auto firearm.
A strong statement but here is my reasoning. Many, many things can be turned into a deadly weapon. This guy rigged his house with what sure sound like IUD's. Lets put a couple a situations side by side. Take the armor out of the equation and hand him a full auto Thompson. If there is an armed person in the theater do they have a better chance at taking him down? No question, yes, the difference in casualties IN THIS CASE between semi auto rate of fire and full auto rate of fire is likely to be minimal. The difference in the ability to survive countermeasures is huge!
If the goal was to survive with the possibilty of return fire I'd take the armor every time. This guy could have done as much or more damage armed with molotov cocktails as with firearms! The guns were secondary. The proof of this is the IUD's in his apartment. Come into the theater, throw improvised firebombs toward all the exits, move on to the next theater, repeat. I'm in body armor, if LEO's fire at me I'm pretty close to invulnerable! Remember the California shootout.
If you follow this line of reasoning you realize a little regulation might not be a bad idea.
Here is my one reservation on this, I'm not thinking completely straight. We used to live in the Denver area. My sister in law and her kids lived very near to this theater in Aurora. My kids (late teens, early twenties now) have gone to THAT PARTICULAR theater with their cousins. Getting a wild hair and seeing the midnight movie is the sort of thing they might have done all together, there but for the grace of god.....
Tell me I'm wrong and being emotional I might believe you, but what I just said makes sense to me.
 
In a scenario such as this we must throw out the COM concept. Like the N. Hollywood shoot out; if that is what you practice that is what you'll do. We saw how that turned out.

One must consider any and all available holes in the armor system. Arms, more specifically the area in the vest that the arms come out from is one such place. The white triangle is another possibility. Head, knee caps, feet, ankles/ lower legs (a N. Hollywood game changer) are all on the list.

If it is obvious that someone has armor on (Level III is bulky) you should assume a trauma plate is present. If they are substantially armored you are generally screwed. In a cloud of smoke or tear gas, with your adrenaline pumping in the general panic you will be lucky to be thinking straight let alone analyzing the target for weaknesses.

As to a previous posters suggestion that someone undergo a background check for armor: how would that have helped this situation? This guy bought all of his weapons and had passed all of his background checks over a period of less than 4 months before the incident. It also wouldn't have done anything for Virginia Tech. had Cho decided he wanted armor. Again the shooter passed background checks to aquire his weapons in the months preceding the incident.
 
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