Roamin_Wade
Moderator
My father is going on a Mule Deer hunt where bears may be present. He’s going to take his 357 as protection. Which would be better for these thick-boned bears? The hollow point or FMJ rounds?
357 Mag, Ball Ammo of Hollow Point?
- Thread starter Roamin_Wade
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HighValleyRanch
New member
Between the two, FMJ.
Better would be Buffalobore Outdoorsman 180 grain hardcast flat nose lead.
Better would be Buffalobore Outdoorsman 180 grain hardcast flat nose lead.
NoSecondBest
New member
Two things: First, what's wrong with his mule deer gun for bears? Second, I've been around black bears for many years and have never had one bad incident in all that time. You're more likely to get attacked and killed by dogs than by black bears. You're more likely to be killed by lightning than by a black bear. I'm assuming black vs grizzly because of the mule deer hunt. However, grizzly could be a different set of rules. Then again, what's wrong with the mule deer gun? I think the fear of bears greatly out weighs the reality.
What's wrong with the mule deer gun is that it CAN'T be constantly on body. A powerful handgun can.
This is something that some people seem to be incapable of understanding.
You lay your rifle down to eat, water a tree, or gut your deer.
Your handgun can stay within immediate reach no matter what you're doing.
And ask those people who HAVE been attacked by bears about fear vs reality, along with how fast those attacks occurred.
If they're still alive.
You carry a spare tire in your car, despite most never getting a flat.
A handgun on your body at all times beats a rifle 10 feet away where you can't get at it.
Otherwise, to answer the question:
You want penetration through fat & against heavy bones, which most HPs are not designed to provide.
A good hardcast heavy lead semi-wadcutter bullet is a good choice, but failing that an FMJ will give you penetration.
Denis
This is something that some people seem to be incapable of understanding.
You lay your rifle down to eat, water a tree, or gut your deer.
Your handgun can stay within immediate reach no matter what you're doing.
And ask those people who HAVE been attacked by bears about fear vs reality, along with how fast those attacks occurred.
If they're still alive.
You carry a spare tire in your car, despite most never getting a flat.
A handgun on your body at all times beats a rifle 10 feet away where you can't get at it.
Otherwise, to answer the question:
You want penetration through fat & against heavy bones, which most HPs are not designed to provide.
A good hardcast heavy lead semi-wadcutter bullet is a good choice, but failing that an FMJ will give you penetration.
Denis
I am like you. I ride horses a lot in bear country. Black bear. Got between a sow and 2 cubs a few years back rounding a blind curve in the woods and horse was smarter than me and we hightailed it out of Dodge. I now ride with a 45 colt with 280 grain cast but hardly expect to run into that situation again. Better safe than sorry. I cast a nice super hard 160 grain bullet for my GP100. Supposed to be 158 but always casts out at 160. Penetration is something I wouldn't worry about with these.
I'll second the suggestion of a good 180grn hardcast load in a sidearm for black bear. Much better penetration than HP. As to the 'discussion' about a sidearm vs the deer rifle, when you're in bear country it's always a good idea to have some sort of defense on ya. Just sayin.
Yogi can run at 35 MPH flat out. That's under 6 seconds to cover 100 yards. A powerful handgun, that a .357 is marginal as such with any bullet, requires you to be able to recognise the threat, draw and fire, accurately, in that time.
If Yogi is in camp, you won't have time. In any case, a shot will need to be put into his central nervous system. That's his head or neck. Both decidedly small targets when the pucker factor is high. Breaking leg bones, that a .357 isn't likely to do on anything but a blackie, won't necessarily help either.
Anyway, most American hunters carry a hand gun because they can. Not due to any real need. Yogi really isn't interested in you. He might be interested in the gut pile left after dressing a deer, but you are nothing but trouble as far as he's concerned. Yogi and Cindy will defend themselves(or the cubs) if you come across 'em from up wind, but they aren't out looking for you.
If Yogi is in camp, you won't have time. In any case, a shot will need to be put into his central nervous system. That's his head or neck. Both decidedly small targets when the pucker factor is high. Breaking leg bones, that a .357 isn't likely to do on anything but a blackie, won't necessarily help either.
Anyway, most American hunters carry a hand gun because they can. Not due to any real need. Yogi really isn't interested in you. He might be interested in the gut pile left after dressing a deer, but you are nothing but trouble as far as he's concerned. Yogi and Cindy will defend themselves(or the cubs) if you come across 'em from up wind, but they aren't out looking for you.
Rather than say bears are no threat and when they are I'd have no time to defend myself anyway, so might as well just curl up & die, I'll have an appropriate handgun on me, loaded with an appropriate round to the country I'm in.
It doesn't hurt to carry a good handgun, and bear aren't the only large critters out there.
Denis
It doesn't hurt to carry a good handgun, and bear aren't the only large critters out there.
Denis
Roamin_Wade
Moderator
He was going to take his 1911 but I explained how the speed of that 357, and it being smaller in diameter, would be a better choice.
As far as bear country goes, this Texan has been in Alaskan wilderness before without protection and I promise you, I would have been glad to even have a single shot 22 as opposed to nothing. The threat is real and ending up as bear crap on some habitrail after being mauled to death by a bear is no good way to go...
As far as bear country goes, this Texan has been in Alaskan wilderness before without protection and I promise you, I would have been glad to even have a single shot 22 as opposed to nothing. The threat is real and ending up as bear crap on some habitrail after being mauled to death by a bear is no good way to go...
bamaranger
New member
FMJ????
I was not aware that a FMJ .357 round was available, but an internet search yields that Tula loads steel case 142 gr and 158 gr .357 mag. So you learn stuff as you go.
That said, I'd rather carry some type of heavy hard cast as offered by the various boutique companies in .357 for the use described, but be bear smart and hope I don't need it.
There's an old adage about "having it and not needing it" and it makes sense to me for a variety of circumstances.
I was not aware that a FMJ .357 round was available, but an internet search yields that Tula loads steel case 142 gr and 158 gr .357 mag. So you learn stuff as you go.
That said, I'd rather carry some type of heavy hard cast as offered by the various boutique companies in .357 for the use described, but be bear smart and hope I don't need it.
There's an old adage about "having it and not needing it" and it makes sense to me for a variety of circumstances.
HighValleyRanch
New member
It's important to remember than not all .357 are equal.
I've tested some off the shelf 158 grain .357 loads that were more mild that Buffalobore +P .38 special Outdoorsman loads out of the same gun, so you have to chrono or do research to be sure that the caliber and load are sufficient in terms of energy and bullet style.
I've tested some off the shelf 158 grain .357 loads that were more mild that Buffalobore +P .38 special Outdoorsman loads out of the same gun, so you have to chrono or do research to be sure that the caliber and load are sufficient in terms of energy and bullet style.
If .357mag is what he has, I will go with the folk that say 180gr hard cast. HC lead because of the larger meplat and sharper shoulders.
Also, every buddy of mine who has lived & hunted in Alaska carried a .357mag or more powerful handgun in addition to rifle while hunting. Most hunted in buddy teams, too. And took great care where to cook & eat while out camping for any reason. They were not at all casual about the bear threat.
One of those buddies preferred a 6" S&W N-frame .357mag. He liked the trade relative to the .44mag. He could shoot it better than a .44mag and the 6" bbl helped his 180gr LSWC hand load scream downrange. Sure, his .30-06 with 220gr RNSP was better bear medicine. but a man has to lay down the rifle sometime.
Also, every buddy of mine who has lived & hunted in Alaska carried a .357mag or more powerful handgun in addition to rifle while hunting. Most hunted in buddy teams, too. And took great care where to cook & eat while out camping for any reason. They were not at all casual about the bear threat.
One of those buddies preferred a 6" S&W N-frame .357mag. He liked the trade relative to the .44mag. He could shoot it better than a .44mag and the 6" bbl helped his 180gr LSWC hand load scream downrange. Sure, his .30-06 with 220gr RNSP was better bear medicine. but a man has to lay down the rifle sometime.
Trum4n1208
New member
I'd highly recommend the Buffalobore Outdoorsman .357 ammunition for this. It's pretty much exactly what that round is made for.
As for the rifle vs handgun thing, I'd rather have the handgun and not need it than need it and not have it. No reason not to carry a handgun on a hunting trip, in my opinion.
As for the rifle vs handgun thing, I'd rather have the handgun and not need it than need it and not have it. No reason not to carry a handgun on a hunting trip, in my opinion.
bamaranger
New member
another post
There's another post running in the "Training and Tactics" section, that is discussing a bear attack fatality, where the victim was separated from his firearm while field dressing.
Unfortunate recent example of the advantages of having the weapon, (handgun) on your person, as opposed to elsewhere, like a rifle leaning against a nearby tree.
There's another post running in the "Training and Tactics" section, that is discussing a bear attack fatality, where the victim was separated from his firearm while field dressing.
Unfortunate recent example of the advantages of having the weapon, (handgun) on your person, as opposed to elsewhere, like a rifle leaning against a nearby tree.
big al hunter
New member
In the thread noted above by bamaranger, see post # 13. It has a link to an article about handguns used for defense against bears. Both black and grizzly. 9mm, 40, 10 mm 357 mag, 41 mag, 44 mag, and a few 45's used in 37 defensive shootings. All but one were successful. The unsuccessful was due to not hitting the animal. If I didn't have a 44 mag I would take whatever I have. Small gun is better than none.
A handgun is a last ditch weapon in any attack. If you are unlucky enough to be
attacked with rifle out of reach then handgun is better than nothing. Bear guns are a lot like snake guns. I don't know any one who gunned down a striking snake. No different than bear or boar if in full charge with no warning. If animal makes its presence known you may have a chance. You already have gun in hand. Just hope you have nerve and skill to pull off a vital shot.
attacked with rifle out of reach then handgun is better than nothing. Bear guns are a lot like snake guns. I don't know any one who gunned down a striking snake. No different than bear or boar if in full charge with no warning. If animal makes its presence known you may have a chance. You already have gun in hand. Just hope you have nerve and skill to pull off a vital shot.
big al hunter
New member
I grew up in snake country. Most people I know that carried "snake guns" didn't do so to stop a striking snake. They carried them to shoot the snakes they saw. More of a hate them, and gonna kill 'em thing. It usually isn't hard to avoid a snake, just give them a little extra space.
Bears are usually not aggressive. And most of the time you can avoid them by doing certain things. But sometimes you get an aggressive, ill tempered bear that has a bone to pick.
Most of the stories of surviving a bear attack that I have read show plenty of time to get a sidearm out and use it. Many of the victims suffered injury before or after shooting the bear. But they survived. Several accounts of bears attacking unarmed victims end with death or severe mauling. Several of the stories end with no injury to the human participant because they had a handgun on them, and used it.
Where I live and hunt there are always black bears close at hand. Many early morning trips to one of my stands I have stirred one up. Nothing like it being pitch black around you and hearing a bear growling and running through the brush to wake you up. Heck just walking out the door and around the property there is a possibility I may run into one. About every two years there is at least one sow with cubs caught on my game came about 100 yards from the house. My Chihuahua treed one of one of the cubs about a week ago. Anyway, Carrying a 12 ga. around every time I go out of the house is doable but I prefer carrying my 357 GP100 with 180gr LWFNGC over a stout load of 2400 around outside with or without the 12 ga. When the cash flow allows I may pick up a 44 mag but right now the 357 mag will have to do. If I did not load my own I would purchase a similar factory load. Black bears usually run away when contacted but usually does not mean always especially a sow with cubs.