.357 mag at war?

I recall Col. Charles Askins account of using a .357 Magnum Smith & Wesson to kill a German soldier while his crew was retrieving a disabled tank.

As to the metal penetrating bullets made in the 'Twenties and 'Thirties, maybe even into the 'Forties, these bullets had a hardened steel core under the jacket. Winchester sold these as "Hi-Way Master" ammunition.

These were not the same as the metal capped bullets that exposed the lead bearing surface. And during the 'Fifties, the Canadian firm Dominion loaded a .357 Magnum round with a 158 gr. RN full metal jacketed bullet. I bought some of these in the early 'Seventies.

Bob Wright
 
"As to the metal penetrating bullets made in the 'Twenties and 'Thirties, maybe even into the 'Forties, these bullets had a hardened steel core under the jacket."

Over the years there were numerous variations -- from soft lead to apparently some sort of zinc based white metal.

I've never heard, however, of any of them having penetrators in them.

Remember, even with the cars of the time, we're not talking armor plate, we're talking relatively thin (certainly thicker than today, though) mild sheet steel.

See here for some more information:

http://www.oldammo.com/may06.htm

There are also a number of threads online by people who have sectioned these bullets and have also found either dead soft lead or some type of composition metal.

AH! Excellent. Here's a page with some very nicely done section bullets, including a number of the kinds that we're talking about mixed in with much later versions...

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Ammo_Cross_Sections/index.htm#Metal Piercing Handgun Ammo

Last picture, first row, last section is a .38 Spl. Western Olin. It has a MUCH thicker nose jacket profile.
 
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would you have been able to buy 357 mag ammo at the PX? either that or have the foresight to take several boxes of ammo with you on the way over. maybe relatives could have sent also?
 
During the Korean War (1950-1953) I've read accounts of both U.S. Marines and U.S. Army troops using the .357 magnum and the 38-44 Heavy Duty/Outdoorsman.

Evidently this become more common (unofficially) after the first winter of the war when our troops discovered that the heavy quilted paddiing of the winter uniforms that the Chinese and North Korean soldiers wore gave them some protection from the M1 carbine 30 caliber load and even the 45ACP.

The .357 and the high velocity 38-44 loads would punch through the heavy padding with greater ease. Much of the fighting in Korea (especially after it became static in 1951) took place in trenches (i.e. close range) and a revolver was a very handy weapon to have. Evidently the higher velocity loads were effective. Nothing about the type of bullets that were used though.

I actually found reference to this situation in a 1950's edition of W.H.B. Smith's classic Small Arms of the World.
 
steveno

would you have been able to buy 357 mag ammo at the PX? either that or have the foresight to take several boxes of ammo with you on the way over. maybe relatives could have sent also?
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The impression I have is that in the 40's and 50's the U.S. mail was a little more loose about things like guns and ammo. Many a soldier recieved a handgun in the mail back then. I would imagine it was the same for ammo.
 
My uncle was in the Korean War,,,

He told me that he carried a snub-nose 38 in a pouch hidden in his pants,,,
His thought was that if he was captured they might miss that gun.

He said he couldn't remember the brand of the gun,,,
But he talked about his "Owl Head" .38,,,
I suspect it was an Iver-Johnson.

I knew an Air Force AP in the early 70's,,,
He carried a Model 19 instead of his issued Model 15,,,
Apparently he had been doing it for years and no one ever noticed.

How he successfully snuck it from base to base I'll never know,,,
I spent three hours at Frankfurt explaining a wall-hanger dagger in my duffle bag.

Aarond

.
 
Webley...you are correct...it was a Combat Masterpiece...my mistake....38 Special with a 4" tube and adj. sights, but with the small S&W Magna? grips that needed a filler behind the trigger guard. Rod
 
I read an account, I want to say it was Eugene Sledge in "With the Old Breed" but it might have been "Bloody Ridge" that talked about a former FBI agent turned Marine who used a .357 Magnum in the Pacific.
 
Handgun ammunition was indeed available at PXs in rear area. I bought enough 7.62, or was it 7.65mm Tokerev to feed a Chinese "Burp gun" with one magazine. I emptied it out and threw the gun away.

Bob Wright
 
What the hell was the PX doing selling Chinese ammo?

What year and where?

Was it battlefield pick up ammo that they were selling to guys to feed their Tokarev trophies or something?
 
What the hell was the PX doing selling Chinese ammo?

What year and where?

Was it battlefield pick up ammo that they were selling to guys to feed their Tokarev trophies or something?
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Just a stab in the dark, but perhaps it was commercially-made 7.63 Mauser ammo.
 
carguychris said:
I recently read a memoir by a Vietnam War OH-6A scout helicopter pilot; he managed to bring a personally-owned 6" Colt Python to the front lines and sometimes used it to take one-handed potshots at the VC when he didn't need both hands on the controls. The doors of these helicopters were usually removed in combat, so he could shoot out either side, but he usually fired right-handed because they circled targets clockwise. This was primarily done so hot shell casings from the rear seat gunner / crew chief's M60 machine gun wouldn't blow back into the cabin, but it also helped minimize the muzzle blast from the Python (the pilot in Western helicopters usually sits on the RH side, so a right-handed shot would involve holding the gun out the door).
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The loch was pretty much unarmed initially. We used them as "bait" for the circling gunships. Arming with the a mini gun pac or grenade launchers came later.

Of course, the helicopter was also armed with the rear-seat M60, and most of them were also subsequently equipped with forward-firing Minigun packs; the writer readily confessed that he mainly used the Python for shock value, and he doubts he ever hit any VC with it.
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The UH1 C's and H's used the side mounted M60's, the C's would be used as gunships with different combinations of mini guns and rocket launchers, 20mm cannon.

Fairly common for Army Aviation unit members to have personal side arms. The problem was no .357 ammo in the system.


FWIW the US Army needed helicopter pilots so badly during the Vietnam War that they bypassed normal officer training and created a warrant officer program; these folks went through the same flight school as commissioned officers but didn't get the same administrative and leadership training and were given the option for shorter deployments. Since the typical warrant officer was a "short timer" who just wanted to fly helicopters for 2-4 years and then leave the military- rather than use the deployment as a stepping stone to a promotion to Colonel, command of a battalion, 20-year career, etc.- the warrant officers didn't have the same incentive to do things "by the book" and often got away with things that no 2LT would attempt.
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The WOC program pre dates the Viet Nam war significantly. It was substantially increased in the mid 60's to deal with the increased need for fodder. WOC's would go the flight school from basic training. Commissioned officers would not go to flight until well after receiving there commission. Many a Captain and Major earned their wings alongside WOC's.
 
IIRC, the FMJ ammo of the gangster era was for the penetration of body armor occasionally worn by the thugs and other varuious outlaws.
 
I read an account, I want to say it was Eugene Sledge in "With the Old Breed" but it might have been "Bloody Ridge" that talked about a former FBI agent turned Marine who used a .357 Magnum in the Pacific.
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I almost started to correct you thinking the FBI wasn't born until after WWII, then I realized I was was thinking about the CIA.
 
The impression I have is that in the 40's and 50's the U.S. mail was a little more loose about things like guns and ammo. Many a soldier received a handgun in the mail back then. I would imagine it was the same for ammo.
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I ordered some boxes of ammo a few months ago and they were delivered by the mailman. Apparently either the USPS is less squeamish about ammo in the mail when it comes from a commercial outlet, or they'll bend the rules a bit to get the additional revenue.
 
Mike Irwin wrote:

What the hell was the PX doing selling Chinese ammo?

What year and where?

Was it battlefield pick up ammo that they were selling to guys to feed their Tokarev trophies or something?
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The years were 1958,1959, the PX near Uijongbu. The boxes were buff colored, similar to GI issue. I have no idea of the source, but it didn't look like Chinese issue ammunition. As I recall the boxes looked similar to the 12 Ga. boxes sold there.

Bob Wright
 
The years were 1958,1959, the PX near Uijongbu. The boxes were buff colored, similar to GI issue. I have no idea of the source, but it didn't look like Chinese issue ammunition. As I recall the boxes looked similar to the 12 Ga. boxes sold there.

Bob Wright
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Man that is a far cry from today. PX's in deployed areas sell fixed blade knives from time to time, but no ammo at all. I wish they would sell guns and ammo overseas, but then again in iraq as a civilian security contractor I had to get permission from the iraqi government to to carry a gun and that took about 2-3 months from the time i got in country. The Army also wanted us to only carry our weapons when we were on duty and turn them into the company arms room at th eend of our shift.

Not sure what the rules are for soldiers, but a contractor would get in major trouble if caught with an unauthorized weapon. Fired at the very least.
 
Rather off topic, but all the talk about buying ammo in the PX got me thinking. Here in Idaho we have exactly one active duty military installation. Mountain Home Air Force Base.

A couple years ago I was in Mountain Home's BX and much to my surprise I came across a very well stocked gun counter. All the major brands were there. Ruger, Glock, Taurus, S&W, Remington, Winchester, Browning, Beretta, H&K, SIG, Henry and Kimber. I was impressed.

When I was in the Army (1986-2000) the idea of buying firearms and ammo in the PX would have been considered a pipe-dream. The Air Force has it good. Has always had it better than the Army.
 
I learned that phesant are actually native to the far east, especiall China and Korea. I was surprised when the Service Club near Seoul got up a phesant hunt. Even more surprising was that shotguns could be checked out of the Service Club. I went expecting some ratty Winchester Model 97 or something like that, only to get a Browning Superposed!

Didn't get a phesant, by the way.

The PX sold a Japanese made shotgun called a Nikko, and we joked about it still having Budweiser logo visivle in the barrels. These $130 US. Learned after it was too late Nikko was the maker of the Winchester 101 O/U shotguns!

Bob Wright
 
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