.357 mag at war?

I understand that the Navy SEALS were issued Smith and Wesson M-66's and M-686's. I would also think that any of our unconventional warriors would have a wide assortment of weapons to draw from.
 
Only example I know of is Patton's Registered Magnum, which he called his "killing gun", though there's no evidence he ever fired it in combat-unlike his Colt SAA. The use of anything other than FMJ ammunition by the military always creates complications. In of Charlie Askins' books he refers to his "pardner" Parker using one in the ETO.
 
Other than use by some Specal Forces I'm not aware of any that have been issued. Many other revolvers in 38 have been as recently as the Vietnam way. They were issued to pilots and possible a few others.

Lots of privately owned guns, such as General Pattons gun have found their way onto the front lines however.
 
While not an issued weapon, many soldiers carried their own 357 Mags during the Vietnam War. One Platoon Sergeant (SFC, E-7 USA) carried a Smith & Wesson® Mdl 27 in a shoulder holster. Anyone he shot didn't get back up; no second shots required! All our Chopper Jockeys were issued S&W 4" Skinny Barrel Mdl 10's (38 Special). As late as 1984, Army helicopter pilots still carried Mdl 10's. (The 130gr FMJ load was pretty anemic IMHO.)
 
Lots of privately owned guns, such as General Pattons gun have found their way onto the front lines however.
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I recently read a memoir by a Vietnam War OH-6A scout helicopter pilot; he managed to bring a personally-owned 6" Colt Python to the front lines and sometimes used it to take one-handed potshots at the VC when he didn't need both hands on the controls. :D The doors of these helicopters were usually removed in combat, so he could shoot out either side, but he usually fired right-handed because they circled targets clockwise. This was primarily done so hot shell casings from the rear seat gunner / crew chief's M60 machine gun wouldn't blow back into the cabin, but it also helped minimize the muzzle blast from the Python (the pilot in Western helicopters usually sits on the RH side, so a right-handed shot would involve holding the gun out the door).

Of course, the helicopter was also armed with the rear-seat M60, and most of them were also subsequently equipped with forward-firing Minigun packs; the writer readily confessed that he mainly used the Python for shock value, and he doubts he ever hit any VC with it. :rolleyes:

FWIW the US Army needed helicopter pilots so badly during the Vietnam War that they bypassed normal officer training and created a warrant officer program; these folks went through the same flight school as commissioned officers but didn't get the same administrative and leadership training and were given the option for shorter deployments. Since the typical warrant officer was a "short timer" who just wanted to fly helicopters for 2-4 years and then leave the military- rather than use the deployment as a stepping stone to a promotion to Colonel, command of a battalion, 20-year career, etc.- the warrant officers didn't have the same incentive to do things "by the book" and often got away with things that no 2LT would attempt. :D
 
I don't think that a .357 Magnum revolver has ever been a general issue weapon. Nor has it been used as an authorized substitute for a general issue weapon. It has, as has been pointed out above, something that those who were allowed or dared to pick their own pistol have carried.
 
"What was first, the egg (1911acp), or the chicken (.357mag)?"

The egg, by many years. The .45 ACP dates to c. 1905; the .357 didn't come along until 30 years later.

Jim
 
"Lots of privately owned guns, such as General Pattons gun have found their way onto the front lines however."

My uncle was in in the Korean conflict, and at some point had my Grandfather send him a Smith & Wesson .357.
 
I would guess that the issue with not being able to use hollow points would be easily negated by loading lead SWC, which has always been an effective .357 magnum load.
 
As far as hollow points in the military, is it all expanding ammunition that is banned such as EFMJ, or just hollow points? IMO 9mm shines when used with HP's, although with FMJ not so much. When our soldiers are dealing with things like terrorists littering the roads with IED's you think we wouldn't be too concerned with our enemies being shot with HP ammunition. I know if it was me id sneak some EFMJ's in my mag and tell my superiors to screw if they found out, also one of the reasons I never joined the military. I just cant keep my mouth shut about unreasonable things.
 
While generally forbidden today, the use of personally-owned weapons by U.S. soldiers was not as frowned upon in years past. As such, it would be rather unsurprising to hear of soldiers using privately-owned .357 Magnum revolvers in WWII, Korea, and possibly even Vietnam.

I would guess that the issue with not being able to use hollow points would be easily negated by loading lead SWC, which has always been an effective .357 magnum load.
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As far as hollow points in the military, is it all expanding ammunition that is banned such as EFMJ, or just hollow points?
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Declaration III of the Hague Convention of 1899 prohibits the use of "bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions." As such, most expanding bullets would probably be included in this definition. That being said, a lead SWC which is not designed to expand may not be prohibited, though the British did abandon their .380 Revolver Mk. I loading because of concern that the relatively soft LRN bullet may run afoul of the Hague Convention.

The United States, however, did not sign the Hague Convention of 1899 though we officially abide by it anyway. It is certainly possible that the .357 Magnum could've been used with FMJ ammunition as so-loaded ammunition was available as far back as the 1930's such as the Western Super-X 158gr "Metal Piercing" load. More likely, however, the revolvers were simply loaded with 158gr LSWC bullets and the Hague Convention ignored by the users.
 
I'm not sure when the first hollowpoint .357 Magnum cartridges were offered commercially, but my guess is that most of the people who took these to war and were concerned about the Hague Accords used the "metal piercing" ammunition that was loaded by Remington, Peters, and Winchester/Western at various points in time starting in the late 1920s.

Essentially, it was full metal jacket bullet, or a metal capped bullet.

This type of ammo was originally developed in the 1920s and 1930s, during the heyday of the auto bandit period in US history, when police were having to fire on moving vehicles and were finding that their lead .38s just weren't getting the job done.

They were offered in .38 Special, .38 Super, .357 Magnum, and .45 Auto.

A number of people have said over the years that the jacket on many of these was quite thin and probably didn't help much, at all, in getting through the heavy metal in cars of the time.
 
I had two tours in Vietnam as an USAF pilot, flying the Bird Dog, O-1E (L-19 in Army parlance.) The first tour was as a Forward Air Controller with 5th Special Forces out of their B-camp at An Loc, lll Corps. My issue gun from the Air Force was a S&W M-15, Combat Masterpiece, and the issued rounds were 130 gr FMJ, .38 Specials. Soon after arriving at An Loc, I locked it up in the Team vault, and bummed a 1911A1 .45 ACP from the Berets. For the bulk of my time there, that's the gun that I carried, slept with, and it was only off my person when I was in a shower point. For a brief period, I carried a Browning Hi-Power in 9mm, just for its magazine capacity...

Personal firearms were officially discouraged by the Air Force, and getting one back home after your tour was over, was problematic...I left mine at home and carried issued arms while I was there.

I saw several .357 Magnums while there, two S&W's and a Ruger Blackhawk of all things. They were carried by senior Army officers, L/C and above, and BTW, the guy with the Ruger was killed in action during my tour, though I don't think another gun with a more modern action would have saved him...they were overrun in a night attack.

Best Regards, Rod
 
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My issue gun from the Air Force was a S&W M-15, Combat Magnum, and the issued rounds were 130 gr FMJ, .38 Specials.
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Just a minor point, but the M15 is a Combat Masterpiece rather than a Combat Magnum as the M15 was only ever chambered for .38 Special. The most similar gun that could be called a Combat Magnum would be the M19 which was based upon the M15.

This does bring up another interesting point. If one did take a personally owned .357 Magnum revolver to war, it could possibly be used with military-issue ammunition as .38 Special ammo had been in the supply chain since at least WWII if not earlier.

Another interesting tidbit is that the 130gr FMJ .38 Special loading used by the USAF was a very light loading. It was intentionally loaded very mildly out of deference to the M13 "Aircrewman" that was purchased by the military. The Aircrewman is not to be confused with the later M13 in .357 Magnum as the Aircrewman was, for all intents and purposes, a M12 Airweight fitted with an Aluminum cylinder. I've read that S&W currently considers the Aircrewman unsafe to fire and that, if one is sent to S&W for any sort of repair, it will return with a new steel cylinder fitted. Because of this and its low production numbers, the Aircrewman is a rather valuable collector's item worth a significant chunk of change.
 
Not to mention that virtually all of the Aircrewmen revolvers were run through crushers by the Air Force.

Problem is, you'll occsionally see a Model 12 Airweight with an early aluminum cylinder being passed off, either on purpose (fake) or by someone who doesn't know what he has) as an M12.

Even worse are the idiots (frauds) who try to pass on the standard Model 12 with a steel cylinder as an M12 Aircrewman.
 
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