.357, .38 or .380?

[Smaug]

Maybe someone in CA can help a sister out?

Lighthouse Lady updated her profile. We have a few Californians. They may not be a convenient area, but they may be too!

You know, after reading the threads and talking to my son in law, I think I am going to get a revolver. Then after practice and living with the gun a while, get the semi auto.

Sounds like a good plan. Skip the 357 though. Lots of men don't like the recoil, noise, and blast, so I'm betting most ladies won't like it either. This would be a perfect thing to meet up with a fellow TFL-er for...

So my thinking is why get a 357 to shoot 38 bullets? My friend who let me use her 357 can't answer that. Is it because it is heavier than the 38 and therefore less recoil?

Just get a 38. A bigger, heavier one. Nothing with titanium cylinders or scandium frames. 38 Specials have been shown to be effective fight-stoppers. 38 +P even more so. My Ruger SP101 in 357 gets shot with 38-level handloads 80% of the time. As a matter of fact, I have to shoot heavier loads than I'd like to some times just so there's enough powder in the case for reliable & complete ignition.

There's nothing wrong with having 2 (or more!) guns. Most of us do.

What do you think of this one? It is a S&W Model 67. Same as the famous Model 10, except in stainless steel (less care needed) and with adjustable sights. (can be adjusted to any load)

 

[Smaug]

Here's another one worth considering, the S&W Model 60. This one has a slightly smaller frame, the grip is just great, especially for smaller hands, 5 shot cylinder instead of 6, but a longer barrel for more potential accuracy. It'll still be heavy enough not to kick too much with 38 Special ammo.

Edit: Whoops, that's the 3" barrel version. Here's the 5":

 

[JohnKSa]

A small gun will be harder to grip properly, will kick more due to lighter weight and will be harder to shoot accurately due to it's having a shorter sight radius.

Since carry/concealment is not a consideration for you I would recommend that you get the largest gun you are comfortable handling and shooting. For example, a full-size .38 special revolver or a full-size 9mm will both be very shootable guns because they're fairly large compared to the "oomph" of the caliber/chambering.

Small guns are great for concealment, but they lose out to full-sized guns in virtually every other department/consideration.

 

[blume357]

Some how I missed your last post about going with a revolver..

38 is fine it's just that if nothing else a 357 will probably have better resale value and depending on the brand and model you will have a slightly heavier gun... and you will know for sure it can handle 38 specials....

With any of the choices in a small 4" or less 357 magnum revolver... I suggest you shoot it once with 357 magnum loads and then you will know for sure that 38 is what you want. Unfortunately I'm stuck with the forum name and email of blume 357... this implys I suppose that I'm a fan of the 357... which I am to a small degree.. but I absolutely despise 125gr 357 magnum loads... the heavier 158 grain is better but still packs a wallop for me when I shoot them... in contrast I can shoot 38 specials all day long..

If you aren't well versed in guns then I think your choice of getting a good revolver first is right on. No body likes the new S&W with locks... I agree. There is really no need to buy a new gun anyway.. plenty of really good used ones out there...

Once you understand the working of a double action revolver you will need to know that in an emergency you will probably shoot this gun double action... Single action is for target practice and see just how good you can shoot at long ranges... in my opinion Smith and Wesson makes the best trigger on a double action revolver, Colt is second followed by Ruger and I'm a ruger fan. I own a 1970's era Smith and Wesson model 19 (357mag) that is the best revolver I own... The double action... long pull cocking and dropping the hammer all with the trigger pull... is the smoothest I've ever experienced on a revolver... I can shoot this handgun as well in double action as single.

 

[shoop66]

PLEASE do not get a .380, they're less powerful than a 9mm and cost more. I'd take the .357 since you don't like .38

 

[45Marlin carbine]

I've shot most .380acp's made excepting the Berreta 'Cheetah' model. and owned several different makes including the BDA I have now and do not wish to get shot w/any of 'em.
I now carry a Makarov 9X18mm and also use it for 'bed post' pistol in spare holster velcroed to the post (replaces my GP100 .357mag). granted the premium ammo for the Mak is pricey but they sure are good guns and a little more 'whack' than the .380acp.

 

[KyJim]

PLEASE do not get a .380, they're less powerful than a 9mm and cost more.

Can't argue the power factor. As to cost, 9mm ammo is cheaper but, if you're talking about the cost of the gun, you made a generalized and inaccurate statement. Some .380s might be more expensive than some 9mms, but I wager the "average" cost of a .380 is less simply because many are made with a straight blowback system which is cheaper to make.

 

[bumnote]

One warmer days I carry my Beretta 70S .380. Nice guns if you can find one, I also have the same model in .22. I have been seriously tempted to buy the Beretta 84FS...it's real nice.
I've got larger caliber semi-autos and revolvers but feel protected w/ it. I use 102 gr. Golden Sabre HP's and 95gr. FMJ round....I alternate HP-FMJ-HP in the magazines.

 

[Wuchak]

Wait!

1. You need a trigger job and lighter springs in the airweight you have. They come from S&W with horribly heavy triggers and the light weight of the gun makes it worse since any extra pull on the trigger is more likely to be transmitted into gun movement. A good gunsmith will polish all the mating surfaces inside so the pull is smooth. They will then be able to put in lighter springs. The difference this will make will be dramatic. This will not give you a hair trigger. It will give you a smooth trigger with a pull weight that is still carry safe. This should cost between $50 and $100. Personally I think every new gun under $1000 needs a trigger job.

2. Try some larger grips with a full rubber backstrap to absorb recoil. The stock boot grips that don't give much grip surface and leave the backstrap exposed. They are the most uncomfortable possible grips to shoot with. Their only purpose is to make concealment easier. There are literally hundreds of aftermarket grips available for the j-frame smiths. A set of Hogues will run under $20 and you can install them yourself in 5 minutes even if you've never done it before.

For about $100 you can improve your current gun and unlock its potential. If you do end up wanting to sell it you can recoup most of the investment in the sale price so there is not much to risk.

If this doesn't work then I suggest an SP101 if you want to stay with revolvers. My 2 1/4" .357 SP101 is my favorite CCW. I tried other grips and went back to factory on it. It gets carried in a Mika pocket holster (I highly recommend these, they are steal for the price) or OWB in a Galco Fletch.

Get the .357 version. Same price with more versatility and better resale value.

If the SP101 stays home then it means I need something really small so the Kel-tec P-3AT w/Double Tap ammo goes with me.

 

[Wolfeye]

LH Lady -

To answer your question, it's common for people to shoot .38 specials (or .38 +p) out of revolvers chambered for .357 magnums mainly because "they can". Specials are more pleasant to shoot than magnums, and many people will practice mostly with specials, then fire off a few rounds of magnums during each practice session. This is just so they know they can still hit the target with the more powerful stuff. It's fun.

Often times, guns made specifically for .38 special are actually the same gun the manufacturer uses for .357 magnum, only with a different cylinder that doesn't allow the longer magnum bullets to be loaded in. So, a person might as well buy the one chambered for .357 so they can fire both types of ammo.

Edit: I haven't seen this addressed yet, but (depending on where you live) it might be a good idea to load a gun with specials rather magnums for home defense. Magnums do have better stopping power, but they can over-penetrate and harm people or things beyond your intended target. I'm an apartment dweller, and I won't load my gun with magnums around here unless it's with "frangible ammo". It's designed to break apart if it hits something hard. My usual choice, though, is .38+p hollowpoints.

One thing to remember: if you shoot a bunch of .38's then plan on shooting some .357's, be sure to clean the chambers out first before changing ammo. The .38's will leave a ring inside the chambers that can make the longer .357 cases stick in the cylinder. If that happens too often, it will actually damage the cylinder.

 

[Webleymkv]

So my thinking is why get a 357 to shoot 38 bullets? My friend who let me use her 357 can't answer that. Is it because it is heavier than the 38 and therefore less recoil?

In short, because you may, later on down the road, decide that you do want to shoot .357's. Something to remember about the .357 Magnum is that not all loadings for it are the full-bore, fire-breathing monsters. Winchester's 110grn JHP (this load is typically available at Wal-Mart) and Remington's 125grn Golden Saber are both a good bit better than most .38's but not quite up to full-house .357 levels (they're about the equivalent of a hot 9mm). Also, with proper practice and a bit of working up to it, you may be suprised to learn that you can indeed handle a full-house .357 Magnum. I always suggest starting with mild .38's and then working your way up the power curve as you feel comfortable (i.e. standard .38, .38 +P, mild .357's, full-house .357's).

 

[JohnKSa]

Magnums do have better stopping power, but they can over-penetrate and harm people or things beyond your intended target.

Premium self-defense ammunition in any caliber is designed to penetrate about the same amount. The best remedy for preventing overpenetration, regardless of handgun caliber, is hitting your target with a good quality bullet designed for self-defense.

The .38's will leave a ring inside the chambers that can make the longer .357 cases stick in the cylinder. If that happens too often, it will actually damage the cylinder.

Yes, the fouling rings can cause .357 rounds to stick when extracting or even make chambering difficult, however I know of no cases where this has caused damage to the cylinder. Cleaning the rings out can be a real pain, but after that's done there should be no remaining ill-effects.

The primary benefit of the .357 revolver is that if your skill advances to the point that you can still shoot the magnum rounds while maintaining good accuracy, you can graduate to the more powerful caliber without purchasing a new gun. I suppose a secondary benefit is that you may find a wider selection of revolvers/models/options in that caliber compared to .38 special.

 

[BillCA]

Lighthouse Lady,

The most important things to look for in selecting a revolver are the fit to your hand, the ability to operate it easily and the amount of recoil it will produce with defensive ammo.

Fit: The proper fit is to hold the empty revolver in the hand such that the centerline of the gun forms a straight line through the wrist and forearm. If this is comfortable, reach for the trigger. Your finger should be able to reach in to about the first joint, but at a minimum, the center of your fingertip should easily rest on the trigger. If not, the reach is just slightly too long for you. The good news is that grips are easily changed out for different shapes which may help.

Many people do "rotate" their grip slightly to reach the trigger and can still shoot fine. For a gun like the .38, this might work for you, but makes fast & accurate shooting a touch more difficult. It doesn't work well with a magnum caliber however.

Operation: If the fit of the gun to your hand is good, you should now try to operate the trigger. Keep in mind that on a new gun, the springs will be stiff. You should be able to exert enough leverage to dry fire the gun. A lot here depends on your dexterity and strength. If you have difficulty, ask someone else if the gun seems extra stiff to them. A stiff action can be resolved by a gunsmith for under $100 and sometimes only $50. You should be able to operate the cylinder release with your thumb (right handed) and open the cylinder easily.

Recoil: Unless you shoot an example, you won't know how much recoil is "too much" for you to handle in a particular gun. Rent one if possible to try it out. If you can't test fire the gun, for a .38 Special, try to stay with a weight of 23 ounces or more. Your Airweight revolver probably weighed in around 15oz so adding 1/2 pound will greatly reduce the recoil.

Suggestions:
Ruger makes a fine gun in their GP-100, however a better balanced revolver is the S&W Model 67 stainless or Model 15 (blued). These guns are twins, except for the finish. These were once used as police revolvers and will do quite nicely for home defense. The large, adjustable sights will help with aim and the slight extra weight helps tame the recoil.

S&W Model 67 - K-38 Masterpiece, Stainless, .38 Special

If you can find a used Ruger Security Six revolver that has been lightly used, it is also an excellent choice even though most were made in .357 Magnum.

Semi-Auto Pistols
Don't give up on the semi-automatic pistols just yet either. While you are looking at guns, I suggest you try looking at the Beretta 92FS (or M9). This full sized 9mm pistol holds 10 rounds (in CA) and is heavy enough to reduce recoil. The best part is that the Beretta slide is easier to operate than most. The Taurus version is the PT92 and they seem to be excellent values too.

 

[gak]

Just joining the thread. I'm glad to see it has migrated away from any auto as well as the airweights--at least as the first choice (over time). The only gun I've had in airweight that I thought was useful in that configuration is the S&W .32 H&R Mag--it's like the gun and caliber were conceptually made for one another--even handles Georgia's warm 100gr stuff pretty nicely - again for an airweight....and I think actually a good carry choice. As more than one person said (in favor--or at least tolerance--of the .380, it's shot placement - and a number of times, so multiple right-on hits in rapid succession beats a high recoil and noise machine that might be hard for someone to bring back on target). Regarding the .32, I think I share that gun (and sentiment) with BillCA.

However, especially since she said she would not be carrying, another +1 for a larger (med. frame - K or such) all steel .38 or .357, shooting primarily .38s - +P, home defense, etc. , except at the range where more basic fare is called for - for $ if no other reason. Because she likely will be concerned about close-in situations anyway, I'd find a nice 3" as a great compromise between snubby and standard 4". Filling this bill exactly, I've got a Lady Smith 65 .357 that's "just so" - 6 shots, satin stainless, full underlug/shroud, fixed sight, with +P .38s shot through it 75% of the time. Nothing not to like and I think the best of the bunch. A bit pricey however - and rare-ish these days/contributing to the price -- if "just" in search of a .38/357 that goes bang reliably and with less(ened) recoil - over the airweights, etc. Nothing beats a good ol' Model 10 (or 15, etc., as BillCA notes), loaded with warm .38s - you're in good shape. None of this addresses that heavy DA trigger pull - except wear (a +1 there for buying used) and practice--as many have said.

 

[Wuchak]

Good points GAK but the heavy DA trigger pull is very easily addressed by any competent gunsmith. A little polishing of all contact surfaces and a set of lighter springs and DA will no longer be a problem. The lawyer springs all revolvers come with are at a good 4lbs to heavy.

Another one in the mix would be a 3" SP101 in either 38, 357, or .327 mag. In fact the 327 mag might be just the thing here.

 

[BillCA]

I was going to mention the .32 H&R Magnum as an alternate, except the ammo can be hard to find and expensive when you do find it. And most available guns are 2-3 inch barreled snubbies which are less than ideal for HD.

S&W Model 432PD - six shot, .32 H&R Magnum.

I should point out that S&W will be introducing a new revolver in 2009. The Model 632 Power Port .327 Federal Magnum will have a 3-inch ported barrel on a blackened chassis. With an MSRP of $980, I expect the streeets will see them at $825-$850. Recoil like a .38 +P but hits like a high-end .40 S&W load. The downside is that it's a new cartridge with $1/round pricing for JHP and $0.60/rd for practice ammo.

 

[tooldawg99]

For what it's worth:

Sorry to post so late, but I thought you might find this interesting.

I took my 18 year old daughter to the range this weekend, to give her some shooting time and find out what she shoots best. She is very strong and athletic {(for a girl) ...sorry, but that's the dad of 3 daughters coming out!} but she has not shot any handguns very much.

We started with a S&W Model 66, 3-inch barrel which is chambered for .357 but loaded with .38 target loads. Altho the recoil was not much, because of the weight of the gun she had a difficult time not moving the barrel down and to the left of the target. This was at 3 yards! She was unable to hit center X at 3 yards.

We moved her to a Glock 19, loaded with 9mm target loads. The gun was a little larger, and she put a 6 shot string in center X. She then put a six shot string in top 8, all grouped within 5 inches.

Just for fun, I asked her to move back to 6 yards and shoot at the head of the B27 target.... all 10 shots hit the black, all within a 6 inch group.

Needless to say, if you have not considered the Glock, especially for a home defense gun, you may want to re-think it! The glock has no manual safety to deal with, no de-cocking levers. Just load it, rack the slide, and pull the trigger. My daughter tried the Glock 26, and with the Pierce finger grip applied to the magazine base for her pinky, it fit her hand perfectly and she shot it equally well. The Glock line is hard to beat for ease of use, reliability, low maintenance requirements, and it may just be what you are looknig for!

 

[Ichiro]

I think the Bersa is a fine choice. And I second the suggestion to get its "little sister" in 22LR for training/backup. FWIW, the Firestorm and Bersa are the same guns.

 

[jtmoose]

I'm going to add to the heavier revolver crowd. Malfunctions do happen when you don't want them to (missed safety, magazine not fully seated, etc.) Even after a lot of training sometimes murphy's law prevails and it's happened to me at really bad times. I'm now an advocate of K.I.S.S. Go for the .38 and range time.

 

[Bang Gunley]

Hello. Yes, .380 ACP is fine self defense, personal protection ammo. I carry a SIG P-232 every day and find it THE most comfortable carry piece I've owned.

My magazine is staggered with BEB/FMJ rounds and JHP rounds as it is claimed that .380 JHP ammo may not give you the depth of penetration necessary to do the job of stopping a threat.

Have a day. Bang Gunley