NoSecondBest
New member
I listed all the reasons I wouldn’t buy one above. Read what I said.
350 Legend
- Thread starter Snipe
- Start date
Nonsense. And the `61 Springfield was far easier/simpler to load for than the 1903 Springfield too.
Any hayseed could (and did) do it.
That said:
- Put the Legend and the 357 MAX in a bolt action -- any bolt action -- and the Legend blows it away.
- Put the Legend and the 357 Max in what has now become "America's Rifle" -- the AR -- and ......
Wait, the Max won't go in an AR.
Prerequisite: You do sorta hafta have your act together with the basics.
Any hayseed could (and did) do it.
That said:
- Put the Legend and the 357 MAX in a bolt action -- any bolt action -- and the Legend blows it away.
- Put the Legend and the 357 Max in what has now become "America's Rifle" -- the AR -- and ......
Wait, the Max won't go in an AR.
Prerequisite: You do sorta hafta have your act together with the basics.
Pontificating about what is written might be fun for you guys, but you are still giving bad advice on the .350 Legend. SAAMI lists a single number for almost all rifle cartridges. But for the .350L, it is listed as .3570 - .0030. New math or old math, that comes out to .3540. The trick is in the "-".
I spent 5 minutes browsing through SAAMI specs and could not find a single spec that lists a single number for rifle cartridges. (-.003) is almost the universal spec.
https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...99.4-CFR-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf
NoSecondBest
New member
Mehavey, sorry I said your baby was ugly.....but it is what it is. It’s simply not worth all the hoops you have to jump through to end up with a cartridge that’s almost as good as the .357max. Several years back I had a Savage ML2 that everyone seemed to think was a miracle gun if you shot it without sabots. After spending a year and a ton of money to get all the ‘benefits’ it had to offered I realized I’d spent a lot of time and money on a mule trying to turn it into a racehorse. Some projects like that and the Legend end up being a big waste of time and money. For someone who doesn’t reload and lives somewhere where certain cartridges are legal, and better than shotgun slugs, an out of the box Legend and factory ammo are the way to go. For anyone who understands reloading, ballistics, and wants a deer gun, the .357max is the way to go. It is what it is, a plow horse at the racetrack.
Ran side-by-side bolt action, same bullet, max'd out OAL per spec. (in this case/bullet also matches up w/ Legend requirements)
Note-1 that these are full cases at at QL-indicated 106% Fill
Note-2 that the Speer 180 is Lee-Sized to 356/7
Did not include H110/W296 or Lil`Gun for the Legend to appease the Gremlin Gods
But had I done so, it would have made the difference even more stark.
NOTE THE CAUTION
FWIW: I've found QL does OK for this straightwall as compared against LABRADAR findings.
Go figure
NOTE: I've kept the Legend to AR-15 OAL limits, and the MAX to SAAMI. Since this is Go-for-Broke Bolt gun.
However let me know how much further out you want to seat. I'll play both cartridges the same again.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
postscript: No one said finding LEGEND combos woul be slap-dash easy. Ya gotta know what you're doing.
But to say the 357MAX was WonderBoy.... Well that hurt my feelings.
postscript: Of course my AR-Legend is ugly. Esta feo y fuerte
Note-1 that these are full cases at at QL-indicated 106% Fill
Note-2 that the Speer 180 is Lee-Sized to 356/7
Did not include H110/W296 or Lil`Gun for the Legend to appease the Gremlin Gods
But had I done so, it would have made the difference even more stark.
NOTE THE CAUTION
FWIW: I've found QL does OK for this straightwall as compared against LABRADAR findings.
Go figure
NOTE: I've kept the Legend to AR-15 OAL limits, and the MAX to SAAMI. Since this is Go-for-Broke Bolt gun.
However let me know how much further out you want to seat. I'll play both cartridges the same again.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
postscript: No one said finding LEGEND combos woul be slap-dash easy. Ya gotta know what you're doing.
But to say the 357MAX was WonderBoy.... Well that hurt my feelings.
postscript: Of course my AR-Legend is ugly. Esta feo y fuerte
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I don't have any horse in this race, but it does seem like .350 Legend is much more popular after 1 year than 357 Max ever was. 3 seperate times last fall I found brass at the range laying around. I've seen the LGS post 350 Legend ammo for sale a number of times and have never seen a .357 Max cartridge out in the wild.
357 Max is basically known for it's flame cutting and everyone dropping the cartridge. Not really a great legacy.
357 Max is basically known for it's flame cutting and everyone dropping the cartridge. Not really a great legacy.
I have a 350 Legend. I developed a load for it. I used CCI 450 primers, Starline Brass, Enforcer powder and Hornady 170’s at reasonable overall length.
The Starline brass is key. I had Winchester brass showing pressure inconsistently with safe loads. Starline fixed that.
Next key is data. Use real load data and rifles built for 350 Legend. I see so much crap posted about reloading for this. I see tons of oversized bullets, excessively light bullets, thin jacketed bullets.
Irregular reloading creates weird and unsafe results. Follow directions!
The Starline brass is key. I had Winchester brass showing pressure inconsistently with safe loads. Starline fixed that.
Next key is data. Use real load data and rifles built for 350 Legend. I see so much crap posted about reloading for this. I see tons of oversized bullets, excessively light bullets, thin jacketed bullets.
Irregular reloading creates weird and unsafe results. Follow directions!
NoSecondBest
New member
The Legend IS more popular than the .357max for one simple reason: you can buy loaded rounds for it. The .357max is a reloading proposition. That doesn’t make the Legend better, it makes it easier if you don’t reload. If you do reload, the Max has it all over the Legend. If you’re a guy who likes to go out deer hunting, takes a few shots a year to sight in, and then goes hunting. That’s good enough for most hunters. If you like to get more performance, have access to many more bullet choices, and be able to develop excellent loads for your gun, the max is the way to go. The easy way out is to buy loaded ammo for the Legend and leave it at that. It’s adequate, but not outstanding.
I don't usually get into this stuff, but I'm gonna stick my foot in my mouth anyway.
Some of you don't get it. I have lived in southern Michigan about all my life. And hunted here since I was legally able to. I hated using a dang shotgun for deer hunting. Yeah, if you go up north rifles are legal. But there are more deer down here in the farm belt. I spent my teens using smooth bore 12 gauges. When rifled barrels came out I spent a lot of money and time trying them. Better, but still not quite right. Then muzzle loaders, accurate, but a bear to clean. And not too quick on a second shot.
Then we finally get the dim wits in the DNR to try the pistol caliber rifles. 35 caliber and up, case length of 1.16 to 1.8 inches. Finally a little sense. I watched a few friends try the 450 Bushmaster, shoots great, but reminds me of a dang 12 gauge again.
I have a 44 mag lever gun, I love my encore in 445 SM, and yes I have a 357 max in a contender. All great cartridges. I think if someone would build a decent lever gun, or even a bolt gun, in 357 max we could all be happy.
But unless you are restricted on what you can use, you just really don't get it. I would love to be able to use my 30-30, or 308, or 243, or any of my other true big game rifles. But not unless I go up north.
So I tried the 350 legend. My brother and I both did.
Wow, for right out of the box with factory ammo, pretty impressive. Deer season, 120 yards for me, one shot. Meat in the freezer. My brother took 2 deer. One at 180 yards, the second at 200. We are pretty impressed. Yes, I will spend some time this summer loading for it and try to make it better. With what I can get anyway.
But I don't see where it is greater than the 357 max, in equal rifles not any less either. But until you can get factory rifles and ammo for the max it will have to do. It is here, it is legal, and it works. That is all.
Some of you don't get it. I have lived in southern Michigan about all my life. And hunted here since I was legally able to. I hated using a dang shotgun for deer hunting. Yeah, if you go up north rifles are legal. But there are more deer down here in the farm belt. I spent my teens using smooth bore 12 gauges. When rifled barrels came out I spent a lot of money and time trying them. Better, but still not quite right. Then muzzle loaders, accurate, but a bear to clean. And not too quick on a second shot.
Then we finally get the dim wits in the DNR to try the pistol caliber rifles. 35 caliber and up, case length of 1.16 to 1.8 inches. Finally a little sense. I watched a few friends try the 450 Bushmaster, shoots great, but reminds me of a dang 12 gauge again.
I have a 44 mag lever gun, I love my encore in 445 SM, and yes I have a 357 max in a contender. All great cartridges. I think if someone would build a decent lever gun, or even a bolt gun, in 357 max we could all be happy.
But unless you are restricted on what you can use, you just really don't get it. I would love to be able to use my 30-30, or 308, or 243, or any of my other true big game rifles. But not unless I go up north.
So I tried the 350 legend. My brother and I both did.
Wow, for right out of the box with factory ammo, pretty impressive. Deer season, 120 yards for me, one shot. Meat in the freezer. My brother took 2 deer. One at 180 yards, the second at 200. We are pretty impressed. Yes, I will spend some time this summer loading for it and try to make it better. With what I can get anyway.
But I don't see where it is greater than the 357 max, in equal rifles not any less either. But until you can get factory rifles and ammo for the max it will have to do. It is here, it is legal, and it works. That is all.
If you can find them, look for the lehigh extreme defender or extreme penetrators. Great results for hunting from what I have seen. As well as load data straight from lehigh.
testing vid, gel test at 100 and 200yds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkZc0lC5_Sw
lehigh site with load data
https://www.lehighdefense.com/all/355-9mm-ftmexd-90gr-bullet
bullet weights are from 65 up to 118, although only the 90 and 118 grainer have load data. being solid copper than should hold up. I have heard of people getting 3000fps with the lighter bullets.
I think the guys arguing which is best are overstating the differences when they really should be admitting that the functional performance difference is small.
I have been shooting the Max since the 1980s and know what it will do.
I got a 357AR just before the 350L came out. It is functionally about the same as a 350L.
I like both rounds and like to feel that I am not biased. They each have plusses and minuses.
Just for the record I will try to do a clean comparison to show how small the difference is.
The most popular rifle for the Max is the break open action. The Encore is the best of the common guns used. The Encore has also been used for the 350L and is probably the best comparison platform for the two rounds. There is a good chance that a user of this platform will load to the same pressures regardless of the SAAMI rating.
The typical break open Max has a chamber with a long throat. Given that most ammo for the 350L is tailored for AR mag length, I doubt that the 350L chambers are quite as generous for throat length.
With a 180 Hornady, the AOL for the 357 Max is probably not going to be much more than 2.200". The 350L in a Encore might work at 2.300" depending on throat. Regardless I would expect the 350L to have a case capacity edge with a 180. I think the advantage would drop as you go heavier with bullets due to typical throating practices.
Without tweaking the legend case capacity I compared loads using Quickload with a calculated 55 ksi using H110 and just using a 0.1" longer AOL to simulate a 350L. The Max did 2283 from a 22" gun and the 350L did 2327.
So unless you are talking about a specific Max gun with a long throat and a very long bullet then it is going to be hard to get the same velocity as a 350L in a direct comparison.
Now how much difference does 40 or 50 fps really make. Not enough to spit at in my opinion. Most folks end up at a load that is a little less than the maximum because they want the most accurate load they can find, not the fastest.
The Max is a lot easier to load (carbide straight sizing, regular roll crimping) with negligible concerns about headspacing, but it is not a current production cartridge and gun choices are either a specialty item (Contender/Encore barrel from the likes of MGM) or a conversion (357 mag reamed out). The 350L has advantages from being a current production cartridge with more choices for guns. However, the 350L frequently seems to be more "tricky" when it comes to reloading.
However, none of the above is that big of a deal for me. I would simply choose one over the other based on the desired platform. I feel the max is better in break open guns and revolvers. There is not much question that the 350L is better in ARs and bolt guns.
Both pretty much "do the same thing" when it comes to delivering a medium to heavy 35 cal bullet at an "impressive for straight wall" velocity.
I have been shooting the Max since the 1980s and know what it will do.
I got a 357AR just before the 350L came out. It is functionally about the same as a 350L.
I like both rounds and like to feel that I am not biased. They each have plusses and minuses.
Just for the record I will try to do a clean comparison to show how small the difference is.
The most popular rifle for the Max is the break open action. The Encore is the best of the common guns used. The Encore has also been used for the 350L and is probably the best comparison platform for the two rounds. There is a good chance that a user of this platform will load to the same pressures regardless of the SAAMI rating.
The typical break open Max has a chamber with a long throat. Given that most ammo for the 350L is tailored for AR mag length, I doubt that the 350L chambers are quite as generous for throat length.
With a 180 Hornady, the AOL for the 357 Max is probably not going to be much more than 2.200". The 350L in a Encore might work at 2.300" depending on throat. Regardless I would expect the 350L to have a case capacity edge with a 180. I think the advantage would drop as you go heavier with bullets due to typical throating practices.
Without tweaking the legend case capacity I compared loads using Quickload with a calculated 55 ksi using H110 and just using a 0.1" longer AOL to simulate a 350L. The Max did 2283 from a 22" gun and the 350L did 2327.
So unless you are talking about a specific Max gun with a long throat and a very long bullet then it is going to be hard to get the same velocity as a 350L in a direct comparison.
Now how much difference does 40 or 50 fps really make. Not enough to spit at in my opinion. Most folks end up at a load that is a little less than the maximum because they want the most accurate load they can find, not the fastest.
The Max is a lot easier to load (carbide straight sizing, regular roll crimping) with negligible concerns about headspacing, but it is not a current production cartridge and gun choices are either a specialty item (Contender/Encore barrel from the likes of MGM) or a conversion (357 mag reamed out). The 350L has advantages from being a current production cartridge with more choices for guns. However, the 350L frequently seems to be more "tricky" when it comes to reloading.
However, none of the above is that big of a deal for me. I would simply choose one over the other based on the desired platform. I feel the max is better in break open guns and revolvers. There is not much question that the 350L is better in ARs and bolt guns.
Both pretty much "do the same thing" when it comes to delivering a medium to heavy 35 cal bullet at an "impressive for straight wall" velocity.
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NoSecondBest
New member
My Encore with an MGM 20” bbl gets just over 2400fps with a 180g bullet. I don’t use Quick Load, it’s measured on a chronograph. There’s just no way the Legend is going to do that no matter how much smoke or how many mirrors you use. The max also has WAY more bullets to choose from. Double down all you want, the Legend just won’t do what the max is capable of. Full stop.
Geezerbiker
New member
A while back there was a guy that developed a wildcat round he called the .357 ARMAX. It was made from .223 brass that wasn't ever necked down. I think the brass was a special order from Starline.
Anyway it used Max reloading data but would shoot from an AR15. It's too bad they didn't standardize this round, it would have made a lot more sense...
Tony
Anyway it used Max reloading data but would shoot from an AR15. It's too bad they didn't standardize this round, it would have made a lot more sense...
Tony