35 grains of triple 7?

9

9245

Inactive
I know normally triple seven loads are supposed to be reduced because of pressure, but also that it gives a velocity bonus.

I have also heard that the cylinders in the Italian reproduction revolvers are actually very tough.

So could a reproduction cap and ball revolver tolerate a non reduced triple seven load? Specifically a Pietta (or Army San Marco, I now have both) 1858 Remington with about 35 grains?

It would be cool to break 1,000 feet per second in one of these but only if it can be done safely.

I have another reason to ask too, even the black powder stuff has become scarce, I could find no real fffg, and the only substitutes I could find were Pyrodex and Triple 7, and most of that was in pellet form, though I did find some actual powder also. I went with the Pyrodex because I knew the load data did not have to be modified, but it makes me wonder, if all I can find is Triple 7, could I get away with using the same load data without modifying it?
 
I don’t believe it’s possible to overload a black powder revolver using the proper powder or substitutes like 777 or Pyrodex. Just a bigger flame of powder chasing the bullet out of the barrel.
 
Aguila Blanca said:
I wouldn't try to exceed 1,000 fps with a black powder revolver, even a modern one.

https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/articles/pietta-recommended-powder-loads/

22 to 28 grains.
Click to expand...
That link does not give load data for .44 caliber.

Also, I believe the historical loads were between about 25 and 35 grains depending on cartridge maker, Colt cartridges being on the low end. I know some people have claimed to have gotten as much as 40 grains to load, albeit with a highly compressed load.
 
T7 is 15% hotter than bp so if you want a bp equivalent load you need to reduce it by 15%. If you want to load it full up in a steel frame it's not going to hurt anything.
 
9245 said:
That link does not give load data for .44 caliber.
Click to expand...
Of course it does. A .44 Remington takes a .454" ball. I know this -- I have two of them. Just look down the list -- ".44 Revolver"

In the normal load table, for .44 Revolver it calls for 22 to 28 grains of FFFG. Below that, in the "Maximum" tables, it says the maximum with black powder (the real stuff) is 35 grains. For Pyrodex the maximum is 28 grains. I have never used either Pyrodex or Triple-7 but my understanding is that Triple-7 is more like Pyrodex than black powder.
 
Aguila Blanca said:
Of course it does. A .44 Remington takes a .454" ball. I know this -- I have two of them. Just look down the list -- ".44 Revolver"

In the normal load table, for .44 Revolver it calls for 22 to 28 grains of FFFG. Below that, in the "Maximum" tables, it says the maximum with black powder (the real stuff) is 35 grains. For Pyrodex the maximum is 28 grains. I have never used either Pyrodex or Triple-7 but my understanding is that Triple-7 is more like Pyrodex than black powder.
Click to expand...
Black Powder is measured volumetrically, Pyrodex has less weight than Black Powder but the same volume, it is not necessary to reduce the load as long as you are using Black Powder measures and not a scale, the pressures are near identical, though Pyrodex gives a better velocity, though not by much.

Tripple 7 as you pointed out is extra pressure, hence reducing the loads, my question was can a non reduced load still be used safely in a modern reproduction given the higher quality steel?
 
9245 said:
my question was can a non reduced load still be used safely in a modern reproduction given the higher quality steel?
Click to expand...

I answered that already but yes you can safely load it up to the gills and safely shoot it.
 
bThe only area of caution I would cite is stuffing a full chamber on a Walker. I heard several years ago from a reliable source (since forgotten) of an incident where the barrel assembly of a Colt Walker was sent down range from a load of T7 3F. The owner of the gun was going to try to come up with a salvage operation on his gun to create a weird type of pepperbox revolver from what was left of his gun. The gun came apart at the wedge cutout on the cylinder pin.
 
9245 said:
Black Powder is measured volumetrically, Pyrodex has less weight than Black Powder but the same volume, it is not necessary to reduce the load as long as you are using Black Powder measures and not a scale, the pressures are near identical, though Pyrodex gives a better velocity, though not by much.
Click to expand...
Black powder is measured volumetrically as an approximation to obtain the weight specified. I didn't come up with the powder charges in grains and grams (both weights, not volumes), the source of that article did. The old-time, black powder cartridge designations were a combination of (nominal) caliber and powder charge -- in weight by grains -- such as .32-20, .44-40, .45-70, etc.

9245 said:
Tripple 7 as you pointed out is extra pressure, hence reducing the loads, my question was can a non reduced load still be used safely in a modern reproduction given the higher quality steel?
Click to expand...
And the chart (which appears to have come from Pietta, the manufacturer you asked about) says no. It says the maximum charge with real FFFG black powder is 35 grains, but the maximum with Pyrodex is 28 grains. If Triple-7 is similar in energy density to Pyrodex, then the same 28 grains would apply. If Triple-7 is 15% more energetic than black powder, as someone posted above, then 35 grains minus 15% is 29.75 grains. That's not a lot more than 28.

It's your gun. How far you wish to push the envelope is your prerogative.
 
Aguila Blanca said:
Black powder is measured volumetrically as an approximation to obtain the weight specified. I didn't come up with the powder charges in grains and grams (both weights, not volumes), the source of that article did. The old-time, black powder cartridge designations were a combination of (nominal) caliber and powder charge -- in weight by grains -- such as .32-20, .44-40, .45-70, etc.


And the chart (which appears to have come from Pietta, the manufacturer you asked about) says no. It says the maximum charge with real FFFG black powder is 35 grains, but the maximum with Pyrodex is 28 grains. If Triple-7 is similar in energy density to Pyrodex, then the same 28 grains would apply. If Triple-7 is 15% more energetic than black powder, as someone posted above, then 35 grains minus 15% is 29.75 grains. That's not a lot more than 28.

It's your gun. How far you wish to push the envelope is your prerogative.
Click to expand...
You missed what I was saying, 35 grains of Black Powder is volumetrically the same as 28 grains of Pyrodex, therefore if you measure for 35 grains of Black Powder the measure will get 28 grains of Pyrodex. The data is only relevant if you are measuring by weight, not volume, if you are measuring by volume 35 grains of Black Powder and 28 grains of Pyrodex are the same, you don’t have to complicate it, you just measure the Pyrodex the same as you would black powder, by volume, not weight.

If you insist on weighing everything then yes, Pyrodex will be 38 grains, but it will still use the same volume as 35 grains of Black Powder would.
 
Last edited:
Hellgate said:
bThe only area of caution I would cite is stuffing a full chamber on a Walker. I heard several years ago from a reliable source (since forgotten) of an incident where the barrel assembly of a Colt Walker was sent down range from a load of T7 3F. The owner of the gun was going to try to come up with a salvage operation on his gun to create a weird type of pepperbox revolver from what was left of his gun. The gun came apart at the wedge cutout on the cylinder pin.
Click to expand...
I find it hard to believe a load of T7 would do that to a Walker. A Walker will hold 60 grains of powder. A full load of T7 is only 69 grains equivalent.
 
9245 said:
You missed what I was saying, 35 grains of Black Powder is volumetrically the same as 28 grains of Pyrodex, therefore if you measure for 35 grains of Black Powder the measure will get 28 grains of Pyrodex. The data is only relevant if you are measuring by weight, not volume, if you are measuring by volume 35 grains of Black Powder and 28 grains of Pyrodex are the same, you don’t have to complicate it, you just measure the Pyrodex the same as you would black powder, by volume, not weight.
Click to expand...
Looking again at that chart I gave you the link to, it does say "Suggested Grains (by Volume)" -- which would never have occurred to me, since both grains and grams are units of weight, not volume.

That said, the chart entries for .44 Revolver show maximum loads of 35 grains of FFFG black powder, but only 28 grains of Pyrodex. So you are saying those are volumetrically equal. I've never used Pyrodex, so I can't comment. You have Pyrodex, so does 28 grains of Pyrodex get you to your 1,000 fps?

As for Triple-7, how does that compare to FFFG and Pyrodex in terms of volumetric energy efficiency?
 
Pyrodex is a volume to volume sub for bp. It's about the same as Swiss energy wise. It is a lot more compressible than bp is so you can pack more into a chamber than you can real black. I don't know about T7 other than the 15% thing as I've never used it.
 
Aguila Blanca said:
Looking again at that chart I gave you the link to, it does say "Suggested Grains (by Volume)" -- which would never have occurred to me, since both grains and grams are units of weight, not volume.

That said, the chart entries for .44 Revolver show maximum loads of 35 grains of FFFG black powder, but only 28 grains of Pyrodex. So you are saying those are volumetrically equal. I've never used Pyrodex, so I can't comment. You have Pyrodex, so does 28 grains of Pyrodex get you to your 1,000 fps?

As for Triple-7, how does that compare to FFFG and Pyrodex in terms of volumetric energy efficiency?
Click to expand...
Correct, if you used the same 35 grain (volumetric) measure for black powder with Pyrodex you would find that you had 28 grains of Pyrodex in the same volume as 35 grains of Black Powder.

As for Triple 7, it is NOT a one to one substitute for Black Powder, unlike Pyrodex, the same 35 grain volumetric measure for Black Powder, but using Triple 7, would be the equivalent to about 40.25 grains of Black Powder.
 
Triple 7s statement to reduce by 15% is to achieve BP velocity. However T7 is virtually identical to velocity of Swiss and Olde Eynsford, both actual BP. There’s no safety issue with using the same volume of T7.
 
Had looked on their site and found nothing. They used to have a lot of information. So I dug out a bottle I have. Right here on the label (can’t get a clear pic) it states:

“Use by equivalent volume to FFFg black powder in replica muzzleloading firearms deemed safe by a competent gunsmith.”
 
"Suggested Grains (by Volume)" -- which would never have occurred to me, since both grains and grams are units of weight, not volume." AB, I believe most of us think of grains as a measure of volume, not weight, seeing that's how we measure the loads we use. So, grains can be both measured in both weight, OR volume. Maybe I'm miss interpreting your statement. At one time I measured by volume 70grs of 2F and found it was also 70grs by weight. The amount of moisture the powder had already picked up from the air could have played a part in this, but I have to believe that most days they'd about the same. JMHO
 
I say go for it in a steel framed NMA of reputable manufacture. I would call newer model piettas and Ubertis reputable. I doubt it blows the gun. I do believe a steady diet of such loads could develop end shake in your revolver. So... you will be safe, but repeated shooting of such heavy loads is ill advised.
 
A little bit of endshake would allow more space for fouling to accumulate and after a cylinder or two there wouldn't be anymore of it until it's cleaned.

I've shot 40 grains of T7 in my NMA, it's fine. Normally tho I do about 20-25 grains as that's what my CVA flask throws.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top