.32 Win Special Parent Cartridge?

Mike, you just had me rolling on the floor of my cubicle with "call him Stumpy".

This thread has been most enlightening.

When my Grandfather passed away, his guns were divvied up among the assorted grandkids.

I, however, also got all of his other shooting paraphernalia.

I kick myself for getting rid of all of the assorted .32-20, .32 Special, and .38-55 factory loaded ammunition he had.
 
Also the lot-to-lot variation in early smokeless was substantial.
It is used as an excuse for a lot of problems now, but relative to 1900, you ain't seen nuthin.
 
Yep, it was truly a technology in its infancy, and there were ENORMOUS teething problems.

I've talked about some of them in other threads here, including government inspectors rejecting as many as 4 out of every 5 lots of powder for the .30-40 Krag from various manufacturers to lots literally starting to breakdown rapidly (and in a few reported cases, spontaneously combusting) within days, if not hours, of manufacture...

Oddly enough, though, the first smokeless powders had hit the market in the United States in the late 1870s or 1880s.

Not in the form of nitrocellulose, for which Frenchman Paul Vielle gets the credit, but in the form of nitrated wood pulp products like Schultz's White Powder.

These were suitable for use only in shotshells, though.
 
They would list early smokeless shotshell powders by the grains weight required to give a 3 dram BP equivalent load. You might see a 32 grain powder and you might see a 33 grain powder.
 
"They would list early smokeless shotshell powders by the grains weight required to give a 3 dram BP equivalent load."

They were still doing that in a few loading manuals as late as the 1970s.

And, until fairly recently, just about every box of shotshells had the dram equivalent printed on it, even though most people no longer knew what it meant.
 
While I admit to not buying any shotshells in recent years (other than some buckshot) are you telling me they STOPPED putting dram eq. on the box?

How are we supposed to determine the shell's load level then?
 
No, not all of them have removed it. Winchester still has it on some of their boxes, I think, but Federal seems to have removed it from all of their boxes.

"How are we supposed to determine the shell's load level then?"

Most people these days didn't know what it meant anyways. The number of people who have functional experience with blackpowder shells, which were loaded with X drams of black powder, is virtually nil.

Some manufacturers put velocity figures on their boxes.

But most manufacturers now have usage recommendations printed on the box, which is to me a lot more useful than a dram equivalent number.

It would actually be a lot more sensible these days for manufacturers to print a velocity on the box. Some do, like this box of Winchester:

10076778.jpg



You can also see the recommended usage chart on the side.

By the way...

1,290 FPS with 1 ounce of shot is a 3 1/4 dram equiv loading.
 
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mumble, grumble..I've known dr eq for 50 years, and what goes in which of my guns. Now, I've got to learn shotshell velocities too??
:mad:
 
I was gonna let this thread die.......

.....but when I went to the Portlnd gunshow there was this guy that had everything for 32-40, brass, bullets, moulds, loaded ammo, you name it, he had it. I didn't linger at his table and thought little of it. But then, last nite I couldn't sleep as my pulse thobbed in a flu inspired fever. As I lay there it came back to me about this thread. Is it possible that you could use 32-40 cartridges in a 32 Winchester Special, like fire-forming a 300 H&H in a 300 Weatherby? Or, is the the 32-40 too long to chamber in the special? Seems like it could have been a convenient arrangement for the times; one rifle that would shoot either cartridge. What do y'all think?
 
No. If I understand correctly, the Ackley Improved cartriges were designed in such a way that the standard versions would headspace properly and safely be fired in the improved chamber. And, until fairly recently, that was the only way you could obtain the improved cases. Perhaps the best examples are 280 Remington to 280 Ackley Improved, and 257 Roberts to 257 A.I. And then there is the 30-30 Ackley Improved which is a little closer to our subject at hand. Since these things have been done safely, I'm not seeing why you couldn't fire a 32-40 in a 32 Special. But perhaps I'm overlooking something. I know that now there would be no reason to do so as the 32 Special is so much more readily available. But when the 32 Winchester Special was a new cartridge, the 32-40 had already been well established for some time. Perhaps in some remote northern mining camp there may have been a newcomer with the latest 32 Special. There in the Alaskan gold fields he should have brought a tried and true 45-70. But being a young forward thinking chap, he fell prey to the latest advertising and wanted to go modern. Once he gets to the far North he does some hunting and his 32 Special performs admirably. Of course he only brought so much ammo and eventually runs short. And no one up there has even heard of the 32 Special yet, his is the first they've seen and there is no ammo. But, by golly, a few boxes of 32-40 just happen to be on the shelf at the trading post. In a pinch, he finds that they will chamber in his rifle and when fired, though not as powerful, will still bring venison back to camp. Now that, my friend, IS pure fiction. But I don't see any reason it couldn't have happened and I doubt I'm the first to think of it.
 
Book says .32-40 is 2.130" case length, .32 Special 2.040". Rims are the same size, but the .32-40 is a few thousanths smaller at the case head, and at the case mouth than then .32 Special.

While I don't have any .32-40 handy to look at, if I remember right, the brass is on the thin side, so, I wouldn't think fire forming them to .32 Special to be a good idea.
 
I guess you COULD ram a .32-40 into a .32 Special and it would fire and maybe fireform. You might not even have to ram it; current production .38-55 is notoriously short, maybe the .32-40 is, too.

But considering that .32-40 is pretty scarce and you can make .32 Specials out of common .30-30, it seems like something that would only come in handy during a Zombie outbreak and you away from your automatic.
 
checked again, the cartridge length of the .32-40 is 2.59" and the .32 Special is 2.55" If the 0.004" difference doesn't put the .32-40 bullet into the .32 Special lands (I can't say, but I don't think it will, it would depend on the specific individual gun & ammo, most likely) then the rifle won't notice the difference.

Where that rifle puts that .32-40 bullet is a different matter. Again, something only the specific combination will show. But it matter more than just a bit. Don't stop zombies very well, if your bullet is a foot low and left from point of aim at 70 feet (for a drastic, but possible, example).

Based on book specs, and assuming examples in the field (both guns and ammo) meet those specs, I would expect .32-40 to chamber and fire in a .32 Special. What it would do after leaving the barrel is another matter.
 
Well, I don't think it likely it will ever be done in the future. I don't speculate on zombies or play those fantasies. However, I'm fairly fascinated with history, what has been done, and am willing to speculate on what may have been done. So, I'm speculating that this has probably been done before, perhaps, the 1920's, and wondering if anyone knew for sure. Not that any of it matters. It was just the delirious ramblings of my mind when I was running a fever that night. Others maybe lay awake at night obsessing over fantasy football or god knows what.....
 
The easiest way to confirm cartridge parenting is to get schematic measurements for both cartridges and compare the dimensions of the main body of the case. If the cartridges match all the way up to the shoulder and change only at the angle of the shoulder, it can be assumed that they are "father and son."

Although many will scream about the use of wikipedia, you can find dimensions and very thorough information on wikipedia for nearly every standard or even historic ammunition. I have NEVER found information of this type to be in error on wikipedia. It is good enough for information, not to be trusted for gunsmithing or any purpose that invovles risk.
 
"Is it possible that you could use 32-40 cartridges in a 32 Winchester Special."

Yes. But it would likely cause a fairly high risk of case splits at the neck. The .32-40 is pretty thin.


"The easiest way to confirm cartridge parenting is to get schematic measurements for both cartridges and compare the dimensions of the main body of the case. If the cartridges match all the way up to the shoulder and change only at the angle of the shoulder, it can be assumed that they are "father and son."

You don't need to match up to the should at all. If the rim dimensions and head diameter are the same, you've generally got cartridges that are related.

As I noted before, it can be kind of difficult and to say that yes, this cartridge was the father of this other cartridge, especially when the rounds cross international boundaries.

In some cases, though, you can draw that family tree exactly -- .308 Winchester was the parent of the .358, the .243, and others.
 
I'd say everything that uses the same head/rim dimensions is in the same family tree.

For "standard" .473" rifle cases, wouldn't the great granddaddy be the first Mauser case to use that size? 8mm? 1888?

Isn't everything else with that head just a lengthening or shortening of the case body and differing shoulders and neck sizes?

All in the family. Cousin Kenny is a basketball playing .25-06, but Aunt Marge is a solid .45ACP!
:D
 
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