g.willikers
New member
Very interesting.
All new to me, too.
In the real world, were these any advantage over the cap and ball revolvers?
All new to me, too.
In the real world, were these any advantage over the cap and ball revolvers?
.32 Teat fire ammo
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- Start date
Mike Irwin
Staff
"IT SEEMS TO ME GUYS, there are a whole bunch of you here who need to buy " CARTRIDGES OF THE WORLD."
I've yet to see an issue of COTW that has dealt with patent ignition cartridges like the Moore or Crispin.
I've yet to see an issue of COTW that has dealt with patent ignition cartridges like the Moore or Crispin.
g.willikers
New member
If we all had our own way to research this kind of stuff, what would we have left to talk about here?
James, that site didn't tell me how the heck the "cup primed" system worked. Was it actually two parts per cartridge? I see two parts in the top photo.
So if the primer was in its own part, and was not in the powder & bullet part, did that get around the White patent?
And does anybody know if legal action was ever taken against the imported pinfire guns? They also load through the back of the cylinder so they would seem to be covered by White's patent.
Bart Noir
So if the primer was in its own part, and was not in the powder & bullet part, did that get around the White patent?
And does anybody know if legal action was ever taken against the imported pinfire guns? They also load through the back of the cylinder so they would seem to be covered by White's patent.
Bart Noir
Here is a drawing from Ordnance Memoranda #14 from Frankford Arsenal dated 1873. It may show the construction of the cup fire priming system better that the earlier photo. The actual primer is in a separate cup crimped in to the case with powder and ball seated on top. As for firing the round the firing pin on the hammer was longer to reach into the cup. It was one of i think 6 different inside primed cartridge tests going on at the arsenal at the time. If interested I'll post some more of the memoranda.
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The cup fire had a very deep crater in the rear and the priming compound was in the sides of the crater. The hammer struck down on the inside bottom of the crater, firing the cartridge. (It could not strike the top as that was not supported.)
None of those ignition systems was very practical; as noted, they were attempts to evade the Rollin White patent, and disappeared when that patent expired. The pinfire system, though, was quite successful in Europe, filling the same niche that the rimfire did in the U.S. (Except for the .22 and a few others, rimfires were not much used in Europe - they went from pinfire to center fire.)
Jim
None of those ignition systems was very practical; as noted, they were attempts to evade the Rollin White patent, and disappeared when that patent expired. The pinfire system, though, was quite successful in Europe, filling the same niche that the rimfire did in the U.S. (Except for the .22 and a few others, rimfires were not much used in Europe - they went from pinfire to center fire.)
Jim
It is an old thread but still worth reopening for those interested in cartridge history. Ok simple view of teat fire round with cut away. Yes the primmer is the teat at the base of the case. Added a picture of one of the teat fire pistols as well.
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Sorry, sgms, that is not a cup fire cartridge, it is a standard Benet primer, of the type used for many years by the U.S. Army for both rifle/carbine and pistol ammo. When the Custer battlefield site was first researched, fired Benet cases turned up and some researchers, unfamiliar with the guns and ammunition used, thought they were rimfire rounds. A few noticed the firing pin dents in the center and reached the weird conclusion that there was some kind of conspiracy in the Army to issue rimfire cartridges even though the soldiers' weapons were center fire! Talk about ignorance leading to conspiracy theories!!
The cup fire cartridge, like the teat fire, was loaded from the front of the revolver (Plant) cylinder. The chamber was not drilled through but had a hole at the back through which the hammer struck down onto the side bottom of the deep crater in the rear of the cartridge. That contained the primer. I have not been able to obtain a good picture of a cup fire round, but will keep trying. If you Google "cup fire cartridge", though, you will find some good pictures and diagrams.
The "teat" of the teat fire cartridge contained the priming compound. The hammer struck down onto the teat, firing the primer. The revolver that used them was the Moore, and they turn up fairly often at the larger gun shows. I bought one at Baltimore a couple of years ago, but was not successful in my request that the seller just throw in a box of ammo!
Jim
P.S. Here is a good source with pics and descriptions;
www.cartridgecollectors.org/?page=glossary
JK
The cup fire cartridge, like the teat fire, was loaded from the front of the revolver (Plant) cylinder. The chamber was not drilled through but had a hole at the back through which the hammer struck down onto the side bottom of the deep crater in the rear of the cartridge. That contained the primer. I have not been able to obtain a good picture of a cup fire round, but will keep trying. If you Google "cup fire cartridge", though, you will find some good pictures and diagrams.
The "teat" of the teat fire cartridge contained the priming compound. The hammer struck down onto the teat, firing the primer. The revolver that used them was the Moore, and they turn up fairly often at the larger gun shows. I bought one at Baltimore a couple of years ago, but was not successful in my request that the seller just throw in a box of ammo!
Jim
P.S. Here is a good source with pics and descriptions;
www.cartridgecollectors.org/?page=glossary
JK
Mike Irwin
Staff
There are three fairly decent pictures of a cup fire cartridge here:
http://www.gunauction.com/buy/11053...le/early-transitional/30-cup-fire-cartridge-p
http://www.gunauction.com/buy/11053...le/early-transitional/30-cup-fire-cartridge-p
caesarsfish
Inactive
Teat and other old rounds
I have probably have 500 rounds of old teat rounds, old paper shells and old copper rimfire rounds with a U on the end and I am not a collector and need to sell these. Is there an on-line auction site that I can sell old ammo?eersys@yahoo.com
I have probably have 500 rounds of old teat rounds, old paper shells and old copper rimfire rounds with a U on the end and I am not a collector and need to sell these. Is there an on-line auction site that I can sell old ammo?eersys@yahoo.com
Mike Irwin
Staff
Try Gunbroker.com or Auctionarms.com
OkieCruffler
New member
Came for the giggles, stayed for the learnin'.
And I have a copy of Cartridges of the World. If they discuss teat fire I must have overlooked it.
And I have a copy of Cartridges of the World. If they discuss teat fire I must have overlooked it.
Mike Irwin
Staff
The only explanation I've ever seen is that it stood for Plant, for the revolver.