For a 32 auto or even a 380 auto I do believe the P-32 would be near the top of a long list. I've shot a friend's P-32 several times and I do admire the little thing but it's shortcomings compared to the P-11 and other like type pistols are still serious. The P-11 can be aimed as well as pointed, the P-32 can only be pointed as the sights don't permit accurate aiming. The 9mm luger is about 50% more effective than the 32 auto, this shortcoming is often justified by stating that a P-32 (or any mouse gun) is better than nothing, the same can be said for carrying a knife or screwdriver. The P-32 and Seecamps represent the extreme in small design, however the bottom line is the effectiveness of the cartridge it fires, not the convenience of concealed carry. Generally in the past the only valid argument for effective use of 32's and such is multiple hits and bullet placement (head , heart, ect.) I don't believe this argument can be applied with the P-32 or other low powered mouse guns at any distance beyond 10 feet or so. Yes you will hit the assailant but you probably won't stop him and at less than 10 feet and coming you are in a world of hurt. The 60% stoping power rating some 32 ammo is given sounds impressive but for my own self protection at 10 feet or less I want as close to 100% stopping power as possible. I will compromise at 90% stopping power for the P-11, no less.
32 Mouse gun nonsense
- Thread starter telewinz
- Start date
Why would we want to buy a gun in a caliber that has never killed anybody?
Kidding aside, although we mostly are a bunchof beer bellied men with allusions of grandeur, stopping the felony rape in progress; but statistics bare out that if we ever are attacked, the mere presence of a gun is enough to end it.
Would I rather have a pistol chambered in 375H&H vs a 32 for that one stop shot if needed, yes, yes, yes, but I will take what I can carry.
What are you gaining by aiming a 2" gun anyway?
Kidding aside, although we mostly are a bunchof beer bellied men with allusions of grandeur, stopping the felony rape in progress; but statistics bare out that if we ever are attacked, the mere presence of a gun is enough to end it.
Would I rather have a pistol chambered in 375H&H vs a 32 for that one stop shot if needed, yes, yes, yes, but I will take what I can carry.
What are you gaining by aiming a 2" gun anyway?
My point is not the length of the barrel 2" OR 24". My point is the terminal ballistics rendered at the intended target. The .223 and .44 magnum have been used to take elephant and grizzly bear but I know of no professional hunter/guide who has ever recommended them for that purpose. True, the 32 can stop an armed felon (or un-armed for that matter) but I know of no law enforcement agency that recomends it for that purpose. The 9mm luger (and others) is recomended and proven. Again why go to the extreme with a P-32 and an iffy cartridge, if you feel the need to ccw then why don't you feel the need to use an effective cartridge?
I would have to disagree with everything you said. First of all, I own a P32 and it does have sights, it can be aimed, and it is suprisingly accurate. Over the years I have had a lot of fun at my friends expense because they adopt the attitude that if it has a short barrel, it must not be accurate; there is no point in trying to use the sights, you won't hit anything anyway. But since I have actually tried the sights, I can usually make them buy lunch on the resulting bets. True, the sights aren't something that you are going to quickly pick up in a high stress situation. Unfortunately, this is just a fact of life; if you have a mini-pistol you can't have big easy to see sights. That does not however mean that they sights it has are worthless. If the situation allows, the P32 has a set of sights that can be used. If you carry a P32, I advise you to check them out; know where the gun hits with the sights. Don't limit yourself for no good reason.
Over my years on the internet I have read thousands of threads on handgun stopping power. Most of the posts are based on nothing at all, some on this study or that study, some people actually have some experience in the area. I am no expert on the subject, but I have actually seen more than a few victims of gunshot wound. In my opinion, compareing the .32 vs. the 9mm is like comparing the top speed of my Dodge pickup to the top speed of your Ford pickup. One may actually be faster than the other, but who cares ? In the real world it isn't going to make much difference (notice I said, much difference. I never said it won't make any difference). Yes, the 9mm shoots heavier bullets at higher velocity than the .32; but when all is said and done the 9mm is no howitzer. These arguments are always presented like one of the two calibers is going to drop a guy like a lethel injection. That just simply is not the case. Neither is going to stop someone instantly unless you happen to strike the central nervous system (brain, spinal cord) and in that case, caliber isn't even an issue. Barring that, we are now concerned with bleeding (there is no other magic). So we punch a hole through the victim and wait on them to bleed out. In one case we punch a .311" hole and in the other case we punch a .355" hole. The .355" hole should be deeper than the .311" hole. That is the difference in the two calibers. We are talking thousandths of an inch difference in the diamter of the holes along with better penetration making the hole deeper. I know that most discussions of this nature are simply for fun. So, I will provide the opposite argument and let it go from there. I am happy that you are satisfied and confident in your self defense choice.
Over my years on the internet I have read thousands of threads on handgun stopping power. Most of the posts are based on nothing at all, some on this study or that study, some people actually have some experience in the area. I am no expert on the subject, but I have actually seen more than a few victims of gunshot wound. In my opinion, compareing the .32 vs. the 9mm is like comparing the top speed of my Dodge pickup to the top speed of your Ford pickup. One may actually be faster than the other, but who cares ? In the real world it isn't going to make much difference (notice I said, much difference. I never said it won't make any difference). Yes, the 9mm shoots heavier bullets at higher velocity than the .32; but when all is said and done the 9mm is no howitzer. These arguments are always presented like one of the two calibers is going to drop a guy like a lethel injection. That just simply is not the case. Neither is going to stop someone instantly unless you happen to strike the central nervous system (brain, spinal cord) and in that case, caliber isn't even an issue. Barring that, we are now concerned with bleeding (there is no other magic). So we punch a hole through the victim and wait on them to bleed out. In one case we punch a .311" hole and in the other case we punch a .355" hole. The .355" hole should be deeper than the .311" hole. That is the difference in the two calibers. We are talking thousandths of an inch difference in the diamter of the holes along with better penetration making the hole deeper. I know that most discussions of this nature are simply for fun. So, I will provide the opposite argument and let it go from there. I am happy that you are satisfied and confident in your self defense choice.
Gee what about my
Black widow NAA revolver in 22 magnum? Should I leave it home and carry just my usual 5 knives?
) Bucktool (has blade)
2) Spyderco std model
3) swiss army mini kinfe
4) Sprderco "credit card" knife
5) chinese copy of "spyderco ladybug"
(carry this on my key chain and have a high loss rate of about 1 a year. cheaper to replace cheap chinese copy than expensive spyderco)
Black widow NAA revolver in 22 magnum? Should I leave it home and carry just my usual 5 knives?
) Bucktool (has blade)
2) Spyderco std model
3) swiss army mini kinfe
4) Sprderco "credit card" knife
5) chinese copy of "spyderco ladybug"
(carry this on my key chain and have a high loss rate of about 1 a year. cheaper to replace cheap chinese copy than expensive spyderco)
I've got to agree that the P32 is incredibly accurate.
I have shocked people with the accuracy of the small gun.
(And I'm the first to admit I'm a lousy pistol shot
)
As far as stopping power, you won't have to search far to find threads that say the 9mm is not much better than a letter opener, etc.
Only a .45 is a real bullet, no only a .357 mag will do the job........
I've read real life reports of felons that ran away after multiple hits with a 9, .40, .45, etc.
There is no "magic" caliber.
I believe that bigger holes are better.
I carry heavier guns when I can, but when I can't conceal anything, I take the P32.
If I am ever in a life-and-death situation, I'll shoot the P32 until empty.
(As far as carrying a knife, have you ever stabbed anyone? I was in a situation, as a very young man, where my life may have been at stake. All I had was a large knife. I waved it around, but I don't seriously think I could have used it.
Why not? I don't know. Too "personal" maybe?
I'm just glad I didn't end up wearing it in my shorts.
)
I have shocked people with the accuracy of the small gun.
(And I'm the first to admit I'm a lousy pistol shot
)As far as stopping power, you won't have to search far to find threads that say the 9mm is not much better than a letter opener, etc.
Only a .45 is a real bullet, no only a .357 mag will do the job........
I've read real life reports of felons that ran away after multiple hits with a 9, .40, .45, etc.
There is no "magic" caliber.
I believe that bigger holes are better.
I carry heavier guns when I can, but when I can't conceal anything, I take the P32.
If I am ever in a life-and-death situation, I'll shoot the P32 until empty.
(As far as carrying a knife, have you ever stabbed anyone? I was in a situation, as a very young man, where my life may have been at stake. All I had was a large knife. I waved it around, but I don't seriously think I could have used it.
Why not? I don't know. Too "personal" maybe?
I'm just glad I didn't end up wearing it in my shorts.
)Well, I was going to rant my usual speil, but it appears 444 and hube beat me to it.
I wanted to draw attention to this (partial) statement. Hube appears to be grounded in reality when he points out the delusions of grandeur that seem to affect many of us.
Though some of us may daydream of saving the day by rescuing hordes of innocent civilians from the grasp of Dr. Evil and his Dasterdly Legions of Doom with our Desert Eagle .50AE, chances are that "Dr. Evil" will be played by an emaciated junkie with a pocket knife and no real drive. In reality, it is an extreme probability that a lowly .32acp to the noggin will take the fight out of any (human) criminal and get the credits rolling in no time.
Thought I would never suggest anyone should go with a lesser caliber than they would otherwise without a sound reason, it may be helpful to keep in mind that criminals will always take the path of least resistance.
I wanted to draw attention to this (partial) statement. Hube appears to be grounded in reality when he points out the delusions of grandeur that seem to affect many of us.
Though some of us may daydream of saving the day by rescuing hordes of innocent civilians from the grasp of Dr. Evil and his Dasterdly Legions of Doom with our Desert Eagle .50AE, chances are that "Dr. Evil" will be played by an emaciated junkie with a pocket knife and no real drive. In reality, it is an extreme probability that a lowly .32acp to the noggin will take the fight out of any (human) criminal and get the credits rolling in no time.
Thought I would never suggest anyone should go with a lesser caliber than they would otherwise without a sound reason, it may be helpful to keep in mind that criminals will always take the path of least resistance.
I believe that your 90% stopping power numbers come from full size duty pistols. Your Kel Tec P11 only has a 3.1 inch barrel. I called the gunsmith at Keltec today and verified this. Given this information your Keltec will produce stopping power levels way under your needed 90%.
Using your arguement....you need a bigger gun.
Good SHooting
Red
Pigshooter
New member
I had a Raven 25 auto once. I slid a piece of radiator hose over the grip for a better feel. We would sit on the porch and take turns shooting at a 6" steel frying pan hanging in a tree about 70 meters or so away. We would often go through a whole clip, sometimes two, before anyone missed. The record for sequential hits, between two people alternating, was in the 30s.
Say what you want about barrel length and sight radius, I don't think it is near as important as the grip. And none of those mouse guns have any kind of gripping experience.
Say what you want about barrel length and sight radius, I don't think it is near as important as the grip. And none of those mouse guns have any kind of gripping experience.
Mousegun - schmouse gun. So what??
My P32 must be a lemon because I can hit out to 7 yards with it about as accurately as any of my other pistols.
Remember shot placement also. My P32 holds 8 rounds and I can fire them off into a 9" pie-plate-sized target at 7 yards about as fast as I can pull the trigger.
Just another pointless argument that has worn out it's welcome. The P32 is my main carry piece and will continue to be until..............??
What do they say? lies, d**m lies, and STATISTICS. Some of these so-called statistics that keep popping up over-and-over are wearing me out.
My P32 must be a lemon because I can hit out to 7 yards with it about as accurately as any of my other pistols.
Remember shot placement also. My P32 holds 8 rounds and I can fire them off into a 9" pie-plate-sized target at 7 yards about as fast as I can pull the trigger.
Just another pointless argument that has worn out it's welcome. The P32 is my main carry piece and will continue to be until..............??
What do they say? lies, d**m lies, and STATISTICS. Some of these so-called statistics that keep popping up over-and-over are wearing me out.
Dwight M S
New member
Heck, 999 out of every 1000 of us "survivor-warriors" will die from disease. We should be more concerned with maintaining our health the best we can.
Dwight M S
Dwight M S
Okay, I'm going to say the unthinkable -- Accuracy is overrated in a gun strictly used for self defense. So you have one that is perfectly accurate at thirty yards. If you ever hit a BG at 30 yards you'll probably end up in a world of legal trouble because you could have broken off the engagement and called police. Plus, real life threatening engagements are usually up reeeal close. And when the feces hits the fan who uses sights?
We can talk about sight pictures all day long but I've yet to read about a real up-close armed engagement where anybody used their sights. It's panic time and you're left with only the most rudimentary point and shoot muscle memory reactions that you've hopefully practiced over and over and over. That's why armed engagements have such an abysmal hit percentage even with police. I'm not talking warfare here; that's offensive use, a different bird. I'm talking on the street.
Now, regarding my lowly little hip pocket Guardian .380. Yes, I'd rather have my .45 but in the summer it's a concealment problem. So is most everything else (I'm a smallish guy). That .380 with Cor Bons will have to do and, in most situations, I think it will do quite well.
I don't pretend to be an expert. It's just what I've read or experienced to this point. I'll be glad to stand corrected.
We can talk about sight pictures all day long but I've yet to read about a real up-close armed engagement where anybody used their sights. It's panic time and you're left with only the most rudimentary point and shoot muscle memory reactions that you've hopefully practiced over and over and over. That's why armed engagements have such an abysmal hit percentage even with police. I'm not talking warfare here; that's offensive use, a different bird. I'm talking on the street.
Now, regarding my lowly little hip pocket Guardian .380. Yes, I'd rather have my .45 but in the summer it's a concealment problem. So is most everything else (I'm a smallish guy). That .380 with Cor Bons will have to do and, in most situations, I think it will do quite well.
I don't pretend to be an expert. It's just what I've read or experienced to this point. I'll be glad to stand corrected.
I agree that the P-32 is surprisingly accurate.
Last summer at my girlfriend's parent's house (middle of nowhere Kansas) we were shooting at exploding targets (the kind with sticky backs and a target area about the size of a quarter)
Her Dad and I were shooting at these from about 15 yards with a Glock 26, Colt 1911 (that was used in WWII), and a P-32.
We were amazed at how we could consistently blow up the target on the 1st or 2nd shot with the P-32.
For some reason, it was a lot harder to hit that little red dot with the Glock and Colt.
I had a new respect for the little P-32 after that day. We also shot at various wood and metal objects and those little .32 FMJs performed much better than I expected.
Of course I'd still rather have a 9mm or .45 if SHTF, but a P-32 is definitely better than nothing.
Last summer at my girlfriend's parent's house (middle of nowhere Kansas) we were shooting at exploding targets (the kind with sticky backs and a target area about the size of a quarter)
Her Dad and I were shooting at these from about 15 yards with a Glock 26, Colt 1911 (that was used in WWII), and a P-32.
We were amazed at how we could consistently blow up the target on the 1st or 2nd shot with the P-32.
For some reason, it was a lot harder to hit that little red dot with the Glock and Colt.
I had a new respect for the little P-32 after that day. We also shot at various wood and metal objects and those little .32 FMJs performed much better than I expected.
Of course I'd still rather have a 9mm or .45 if SHTF, but a P-32 is definitely better than nothing.
It's funny how we would tell someone to carry a big bore, or nothing at all; when over 95% of the time, the mere presence of a pistol thwarts an attack.
I carry a 45 auto most of the time, but I don't think it will protect me that much better than my P32 in most gun fights. But I sure feel a lot better knowing its on my hip.
I carry a 45 auto most of the time, but I don't think it will protect me that much better than my P32 in most gun fights. But I sure feel a lot better knowing its on my hip.
E. BeauBeaux
New member
Now I'm afraid to leave work, all I have is the NAA Guardian in 32. Like so many other's it's a concealment question. Many place's have a zero policy in the workplace. In a situation like that it has to be concealed 100% all the time or you are fired. Thank you Kramer for the wallet holster, it's perfect.
Now maybe I can find somebody to walk with me to the parking lot.
Now maybe I can find somebody to walk with me to the parking lot.
Um . . .
. . . who can say when a load/gun combo is good for "90% stopping power"? Stopping power against who? Dressed how? In what psychological state?
There are no Underwriter's Labs here guaranteeing a load or caliber or gun will work on Target X in Situation Y. Seems to me like these threads all come down to a lot of guesswork - there are too many variables involved to say for certain that "I've got 90% stopping power with my Blastomatic 500 in .54¼ Superbang.
Think about what you're likely to face. Think about what cartridge/load is likely to work against that type of target in the situations you're likely to be in. Pick what you feel comfortable with, because there sure isn't a formula to guarantee what's going to work.
Me? I love shooting a .32, but I don't think it would suit my needs out of such an itty-bitty barrel. So I don't have a P-32.
But I don't feel the need to start threads that deride those who do . . .
. . . who can say when a load/gun combo is good for "90% stopping power"? Stopping power against who? Dressed how? In what psychological state?
There are no Underwriter's Labs here guaranteeing a load or caliber or gun will work on Target X in Situation Y. Seems to me like these threads all come down to a lot of guesswork - there are too many variables involved to say for certain that "I've got 90% stopping power with my Blastomatic 500 in .54¼ Superbang.
Think about what you're likely to face. Think about what cartridge/load is likely to work against that type of target in the situations you're likely to be in. Pick what you feel comfortable with, because there sure isn't a formula to guarantee what's going to work.
Me? I love shooting a .32, but I don't think it would suit my needs out of such an itty-bitty barrel. So I don't have a P-32.
But I don't feel the need to start threads that deride those who do . . .
BS
True many European cops carried 32 auto but the reality was that pistols and daggers were mainly for looks and ceremony. German offers carried .32's often BUT rarely used them in combat! Thats what the P38 and Lugers were issued for. Even submachine guns fired 9mm luger or better, no .32 auto was issued as the primary defensive or offensive weapon in any army for combat use. I have fired the P32 several times and I think very highly of that pistol but it still has poor sights and is not accurate at any distance beyond 10 feet, if you shoot a small 32 auto you may be relying more on luck and theory than common sense. The 32 auto in any pistol is not a manstopper, and that is the pimary purpose of ccw. If you want to impress you friends with your ccw gun thats one thing, if you want to protect yourself and others that is more demanding than what the .32 auto can deliver. By the way, how many European cops carry 32 auto pistols now? And why do you think they stopped? Maybe times have changed and they feel they might really have to use them
True many European cops carried 32 auto but the reality was that pistols and daggers were mainly for looks and ceremony. German offers carried .32's often BUT rarely used them in combat! Thats what the P38 and Lugers were issued for. Even submachine guns fired 9mm luger or better, no .32 auto was issued as the primary defensive or offensive weapon in any army for combat use. I have fired the P32 several times and I think very highly of that pistol but it still has poor sights and is not accurate at any distance beyond 10 feet, if you shoot a small 32 auto you may be relying more on luck and theory than common sense. The 32 auto in any pistol is not a manstopper, and that is the pimary purpose of ccw. If you want to impress you friends with your ccw gun thats one thing, if you want to protect yourself and others that is more demanding than what the .32 auto can deliver. By the way, how many European cops carry 32 auto pistols now? And why do you think they stopped? Maybe times have changed and they feel they might really have to use them
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Using RBCD ammo a .32acp is a very impressive round. In fact all their ammo is. With a RBCD .32acp I can blow a water filled gallon jug to pieces. If a bg needs shooting he'a going to be in the hurt locker. www.rbcd.net
Study after study rates the 9mm load superior to a .32 or 380 and I am talking from the 1910's to the present day. A verified study or not they all rated the 9mm superior in every way to the 32 auto. A 22lr will blow up a milk jug, thats hardly a valid argument for defensive effectiveness. Of course I agree caliber and pistol choice are a private citizen's decision just as wearing a helmet for motorcycles are(in some states)and the 32 caliber is not a bad reflection on the P-32. I called Kel tec 3 weeks ago and asked if they had any plans to make the P-32 in .380 caliber, unfortunately they said no. My argument is that the 9mm more often than not over the past 80 years has been considered just 50% effective for 1 shot stopping power. A compact design like the P11 or others in 9mm luger along with the better bullets now available begs the question, if you feel the need to go armed why wouldn't you go armed with a proven, effective caliber. I like the P32 but it seems to be intended for those who have other reasons for ccw. Maybe learning card tricks would be more up their alley, I've been very impressed with some of the tricks I've seen. For self defense instead of the .32 auto, you would be better served throwning a brick, they really hurt!