308 Winchester: Why So Popular for Long Range?

Bart B.

I saw a Savage Palma rifle for sale in the PX last year. I had a "omg!" moment and had to resist pulling out the gold card to take it home with me. I'm going to try to stick with the traditional High Power course of fire to hone my wind reading skills before moving on to something like Palma or F Class.

You know it is crazy, but I think about the sport of High Power Match Rifle 50 years ago, and folks competing with customized 30-06's or 308 bolt action rifles on M70 actions and somehow it seems more impressive the ones that made it to High Master. I think if I were going to go the bolt action match rifle route in that era I would have chosen a lighter recoiling cartridge like the 6.5 Swede (which was dominating the 300 meter Free Rifle competitions until the 168 SMK was released).

Jimro
 
Jimro, everyone would have gone to smaller calibers than 30 back then if the rules allowed it. That began in the early 1970's when service rifles included the 22 caliber M16 and their offspring started winning everything 300 yards and less. A few years later the 22's with heavy bullets took home most of the marbles awarded for scores up through 600 yards.

Some years ago, I talked with Henry Cross, the NRA's International Shooting "man," about the 6.5 Swede cartridge used at 300 meters. His comments were that it would have been nice if heavy 26 caliber bullets could be made as precise as 30 caliber ones so they would buck the wind better than the 26 caliber ones used at the time. And Norma's 139-gr. nickel plated FMJBT .264" bullet was the best made at the time evidenced by all the European's liking it for their biathlon and free rifles used at 300 meters. It was the best wind bucking, tack driving, light recoiling bullet made until 1958. That's when Sierra came out with their 30 caliber 168 International bullet that shot more accurate with the same recoil from .308 cases than the Swede did with Norma's bullet.

It wasn't until the 1980's that the 30 caliber rule was dropped for NRA match rifles and any caliber 8mm or smaller could be used (or something like that). That's when really good bullets under 30 caliber could be had heavy enough to shoot well past 300 yards. .243's, 6XC's, 6.5x.308's and 7-08's infiltrated the firing lines. And the 6.5x.284 pushed the 30 caliber magnums out of favor when any rifle was allowed.

Off the shelf, kind of...... Years ago, I saw an Anschutz 1413 free rifle (with all accessories) in a pawn shop with a $3295.00 price tag on it. I knew the owner and asked him what he paid for it. $900 was his answer. He sold it a month later.
 
Last edited:
After a match I was sitting across the restaurant table from a shooting bud whose skills I really respect. He has placed second or third during Highpower at Camp Perry and has won the Wimbleton 1000 yard match.

I asked him his opinion on the 308 and 30-06 at 600 yards. He had gone through a 30-06 phase and while he had shot 200’s with the 30-06, he was never able to get his X count above 10, while with the 308, I was his scorer and remember X counts above 15. As for a 1000 yard rifle, he thought the extra 150 fps you can get out of a 30-06 might make a positive difference but he had never tried.

As for myself, so far, my best 600 yard scores have been with the 308. I only have one target 30-06 and it is a hard rifle to shoot well. Kicks something horrible for one thing and stock weld is not the best. I have not shot a 200 yet, but I have shot 198’s and 199’s with good X counts with my 308's. At 1000 yards, my wind reading abilities are such, I might as well be throwing rocks. It is very frustrating to watch the bullet go from a seven or eight on the left, to a seven or eight on the right. Might have been 6’s for all I know. I don’t want to remember, it is that bad.
 
That's pretty good shooting from rests using scopes and big 30 caliber cartridges in 20-pound rifles whose heavy bullets buck the wind very well. All but about 14 of the 180 shots went inside the 10 inch ten ring and 104 shots went in the 5 inch X ring. They're holding an aiming area of 1/20th MOA or smaller.

The Palma course team record with .308's, 3.5-pound triggers and metallic sights on 13-pound rifles slung up in prone with those two target rings twice as big is 1796-119X. Aiming area for these people is about 5/8th MOA. And they're using 155-gr. bullets, too.

Different strokes for different folks.
 
Last edited:
Quotes: by PATHDOC
You will always find a niche cartridge that will do something better at the extreme ragged edge of performance demands, but it's a harder task to find a better all-rounder (or more to the point, one that's still being given the same level of development support). Nearest I can think of in the Western context is the .50 BMG, but that's in such a different class as regards its utilization and the sort of firearms which chamber it that direct comparison seems unwise.

QUOTES: by BART B.
That's pretty good shooting from rests using scopes and big 30 caliber cartridges whose heavy bullets buck the wind very well. All but about 14 of the 180 shots went inside the 10 inch ten ring and 104 shots went in the 5 inch X ring. They're holding an aiming area of 1/10 MOA or smaller.

PATHDOC AND BART I believe both of you are on to some of the 308 accuracy reasons that I see little of in most post on long range. There seems to be a common denominator in accuracy issues between both bullet mass and a round that is its latter 1/2 to 1/3 of maximum effective range. Of course there are are factors that I see regularly such as bullet info of which there is a ton of on the 308 for learning purposes. Also wide bullet variety and specialization specifically for long range. A magnitude of load data for easy use. Good cheaper options on actions and barrels across the counter. A cartridge that is well designed for the caliber to stabilize chamber pressures. If you study other sniper rounds you find some the same attributes.The 50 BMG for example which would still be the go to over 1500 yards if the Geneva Convention had not labeled it as inhumane as just a sniper round and it can only be used as a anti material round. That is the reason for the development of the 338 Lapua to give a round that can project more mass than the 30 cal. at proper speed with proper barrel twist to reach ranges exceeding 2500 yards with pin point accuracy as a sniper round. another factor not regularly talked about in post is the time in flight that it takes a bullet to totally stabilize in flight. My old idea that the flatter the gun shot the more accurate if it was at long range was totally wrong. A bullet is more stable in the latter part of its effective range.The max effective range with the 308 with a 175 grain bullet is 1421 yards. My son in the Marine Corp has told me for the extended time he was over a range that the M 16 5.56 that all Marines are required to qualify on that he has seen this proved at a high percentage . He said that 90 % shot in the 4& 5 scores at 500 yards but scored their lowest at 300. At 100 and 200 the scores were only slightly better than 300 but still below the 500 scores. The conclusion was that at 300 the bullet was at the top of its arc and flattening out and not yet perfectly stabilized. At 500 it was stabilized and on a consistent descent.
 
Last edited:
Can't argue with you on that I am still trying to make my mind up. In talking to my son he said the 6.5 x 284 is certainly in the hunt but his perspective is a little different than others. Training someone how to take advantage of a caliber is different than learning for yourself. Not everyone puts the effort into it. He said he can teach a complete idiot everything he needs to know without wasting a lot of time to be effective with the 308. Overall cost for just bench shooting rather than competition is the other factor. It seems with improvements in the 6.5 bullet BC that the caliber is taking some of the edge at times. The one thing that does crop up in all sniper rounds is bullet mass bucking elements I just don't have enough data to make a sure fire argument one way or the other. I do welcome anything I can hear on the 6.5 though.
 
Last edited:
I also just posted a lot of what I found on the post title most accurate 1000 yard deer caliber. I welcome any info in either post on the 6.5 x 284 or 308 or 260 calibers. Thanks!
 
rdavidsonjr, does the USMC qual course have the same size targets at each range and is the rifle shot from the steadiest postion (prone) for each one? I think the longer range ones subtend larger angles and are shot at from more stable positions; both contribute to better scores at greater distances. That's been the case with NRA bullseye targets used in competition for decades.

I ask because it's been proved for decades that accuracy increases its subtended angle as range increases; typically 10% to 15% for each 100 yards past the first one. Observing benchrest aggregate group records for 100, 200 and 300 yards proves that; each range groups sizes are bigger in MOA's shot.

And bullets are typically well stabilized by the time they go 100 yards down range. All bullets become less stable at longer ranges as their veocity slows down approaching the speed of sound. All of which is why the military changed their long range 7.62 ammo from a 168-gr. bullet that went subsonic at about 800+ yards to a 175-gr. one that stayed supersonic through 1000. Bullets slowing down towards Mach 1 is one contributing factor of why accuracy in MOA decreases (bigger MOA) as range increases. And the more they slow down, the more they drift sideways from subtle cross winds.

Note also that a recent test of sniper rifle cartridges by top ranked long range folks showed the .300 Win. Mag. produced the highest number of first-shot on target results up through 1500 yards. Also shot the smallest test groups. But the military picked the .338 Lap Mag because they wanted it.

Go to /Sierra Bullets' web site and check the BC's of their 26, 28 and 30 caliber heavy bullets. The differences are insignificant
-------
Reynolds, the half dozen or so folks that made the 6.5x.284 popular in long range matches also used the 6.5x.308 (commercially, the .260 Rem. along with some 24 caliber cartridges) to make it popular in short to mid range matches. They all used to use the .308 Win. for either as well as 30 caliber magnums at long range. They all produced equal accuracy as tested in the rifles, but the smaller caliber ones with lighter bullets had less recoil during barrel time and therefore were able to shoot more accurate when shot slung up in prone with lighter bullets that bucked the wind about as good.

That small group of high power rifle competitors have won the most matches and set the most records of any other group the same size. They started back in the 60's using the .308 Win. to move the .30-06 users to switch to the .308. When better match bullets were available in 28, 26 and 24 calibers, they began using them when appropriate and legal by the rules.
 
Last edited:
Old Roper, yes, it's Team; different ones depending on Program and Course of Fire.

Start with the top, "Firearm Type" drop-down menu selecting "Rifle."

Next, use the second drop-down, "Discipline" then scroll it all the way down to its bottom and select either:
. . . "HIGH POWER RIFLE (62)" for rifles shot slung up in prone without rests.
. . . "F-CLASS OPEN (Rule 3.4(a)) (60) for F-class open shot from prone using rests.

Then use the third drop-down menu "Program" and select the team type choice.

Now use the fourth drop down, "Course" and scroll down to select the particular course of fire.

When all four drop downs have your selected choice, click on the "Search" screen button.

The record scores show up for each division of competitors along with the dates they were fired.
 
Bart B. I will have to get back to you on the answer but your point brings an explanation into play that had slipped my mind. It is hard to communicate with my son due to USMC demands on his time and of course our time difference. Thanks greatly for your input , the wisdom of aged experience is irreplaceable in getting to the bottom of a debate.
 
Like many other military designed cartridge much of its word of mouth advertisement and following originated from those who Served and were the creators of its overall popularity. As you know the military spares no expense in their small arms development. Stands to reason you employ 2-300,000 fellows and give your employees all the same tool /cartridge. Its bound to become popular with everyone else involved in Shooting Sports also. I consider the 308 to be just plain Universal. Accurate to a point and acceptable accuracy there after. That's the usual experience one can count on by those who shoot long distance as a recreation or as their job. But the 308 like any other cartridge does have its limits. Only one other way I know of to make this cartridge even more popular. Change its name to: 308 Universal. How's that sound._;)
 
Point well taken and understood. I have yet to determine if everyone in love with the 308 is from a military beginning and lack of desire to change and learn a knew round even my son. Maybe it is somewhat sentimental if the 308 has kepted you alive in war situations.Or is it actually better than most and only equaled by few in long range. I see arguments that the 30 cal bucks wind and elements making if more stable then I see that there is no difference if BC is a equal in bucking the elements by guys that should know. Sometimes in one post I see the same guy make one point only to later argue the other point in another post.
 
Old Roper, that 1796-119X Palma Team record's shown when the drop-down's are set up as follows:

Rifle
HIGH POWER RIFLE [62]
Four Man Team
PALMA TEAM COURSE - METALLIC SIGHTS
 
I have yet to determine if everyone in love with the 308 is from a military beginning and lack of desire to change and learn a knew round even my son. Maybe it is somewhat sentimental if the 308 has kepted you alive in war situations.Or is it actually better than most and only equaled by few in long range. I see arguments that the 30 cal bucks wind and elements making if more stable then I see that there is no difference if BC is a equal in bucking the elements by guys that should know. Sometimes in one post I see the same guy make one point only to later argue the other point in another post.
Click to expand...

Cartridges become popular because of availability of firearms that use it, which is why the 30-30 is still popular and the 303 Savage is difficult to find, why the 300 H&H Magnum has few factory offerings and the 300 Winchester Magnum has plentiful factory offerings.

In the case of the 30-30, Winchester will making leverguns (and Marlin, and Henry, and Ubertti, etc) as long as they turn a profit. In the case of the 30-06, two generations of men came home from war with intimate familiarity with the round and were able to buy quality surplus rifles or new civilian rifles off the shelf. Same story with the 308.

The 300 Win Mag and 7mm Rem Mag are also popular, but they had to come about the completely civilian route, and they did based on their originating companies based on advertising and more advertising. The 300 Win Mag, like the 30-30, been pressed into service (the 30-30 was issued to some seagoing support units in WWII). The Mk248 Mod0 sniper ammunition in 300 Win Mag is highly regarded by the snipers who use it, and everyone who gets the choice I've known chooses the 300 Win Mag over the 308 as a sniper round from a bolt rifle.

That being said, the semi auto sniper rifles are all 308 (save for the Barrett) and do quite well for themselves.

History is littered with good rounds that didn't get adopted widespread despite being quite desirable from a performance standpoint. The 6.5 Arisaka, the 280 Ross, the 8x63 Swede come to the top of my head.

So I can't tell you all the reasons why the 308 is popular other than it is plentiful and adequate for nearly every purpose in the places it is plentiful.

Jimro
 
I got it Bart, Bad thing we both are posting about is custom rifles and record you where post about were shot by.

Michelle Gallagher,Nancy Tompkins,Bryan Litz,Bob Gustin
 
Bart B.I'm not sure I fully grasp what your sayingin the second paragraph. I talked to him and sometimes it hard to get enough time to talk with him to get full details but I got the questions you asked answered. What I didn't catch in his first discussion is that the 100 and 200 had nothing to do with what he was seeing because of exactly the points your speaking of. The 100 is prone and the 200 is sitting, kneeling and standing. He said that at those two ranges he could not make an accurate comparison because of the difference in position and other factors plus those ranges seem to fall within the normal expectations. He said at 300 it is prone and sitting and 500 is prone. He also stated that for the record a lot of them due to facility factors shot better sitting than prone which is not the case other places in more comfortable conditions we are talking about 29 Palms. He said you are correct about the sizing of the targets. He also said that he is not talking about scoring but actual groups at 300 and 500 in the prone position both places. What they are seeing about 90 % of the time is groups at 500 a 10-12"approx. and the same soldier all over the paper at 300 some as bad as 25". He said he has shot it himself several times comparing prone to prone and prone to sitting which he says is his better position. The results were very similar. He has had a few opinions on why but he and several others at the range don't know why this is happening at such a consistent rate. He had 5 soldiers 2 days ago it happened with everyone of them. One guy obliterated the 500 and barely kept it on the paper at 300. He said in 5 1/2 years it is so consistent that it escapes reasoning. You have a lot of experience what do you think? I have him emailing the ballistics on the round and a pic to see what their using.

I won't disagree with you on the accuracy of the 300 Win mag for the person that can handle the recoil and he said he wouldn't either. He said if the 300 would cover the job as effectively over ranges from 1000 to 2400 as the 338 Lapua it would have been selected because it is well below half the cost. He said the info he has is that the 300 will not cover that range as effectively as the 338. And he again confirmed that the 50 bmg is a job specific round that can only be used now for a anti material round because of the Geneva convention rule against its use as inhumane for personnel only sniper purposes. When he and his team goes out for recon duty he said a 308 sniper rifle is carried for personnel duty up to around 1000 yards and either a 338 or a 50 bmg depending on the expected job at hand.

And to those that say it is bogus about stabilization and that the bullet is already stabilized at 100 yards I can see where my son gets his thoughts on that. He sent me a training power point on the 5.56 and I watched the simulated stability on a chart style diagram both side view and head on through the whole 500 yards and I see that it is never totally stabilized in flight.

Thanks for your input Bart B.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top