.308 Win Hang-fires

[kilotanker22]

Warning
This posts lists data for a powder and bullet combination for which no published data could be found. Published data was used while replacing several key components like primer and bullet. Do not use this data. This data is for my own use and conversation within the forum. Neither TFL or myself will be responsible for the use of the data in this thread.

Decided to try Alliant Power Pro Varmint in my .308 Win today. Lapua Palma cases, CCI 450 primer, Hornady 165 grain BTSP. The only data I could find for this powder, cartridge and bullet was from Federal premium load data. The bullet they used was the 165 grain Trophy Bonded Tipped.

I used a starting load in the middle of the published range at 42 grains. I also loaded in half grain increments up to 44.5 grains, which was .2 grains below the listed maximum charge. Bullets were seated to the canelure.
My lowest charge weight showed approximately a one second delay in firing after the firing pin dropped. I fired four of these to make sure it was not a fluke. The fourth shot did not go off at all. No high pressure signs at all and velocity was 150 fps below published data. So, I skipped right to my maximum charge. At 44.5 grains, only 40% of cartridges had a noticeable delay in firing. Although, the delay was much shorter, only a fraction of a second. I fired the rest of the max charge to empty the brass.

I am left with wondering if I need more powder to make this powder work in cold temperatures, large rifle primers, or to abandon this powder all together for the 308.

 

[44 AMP]

CCI 450 primer,

Small Rifle Magnum primer in .308 Winchester?
That might be your problem right there.

you said velocity was below expected, did all the powder burn?? Was there any "golden" residue??

I don't know anything about the specific powder you used, is it on the slow end of the burn rate range??

Just as a guess, using small rifle primers, even magnums, may not be "lighting the fire hot enough".

Try it again, with cases that take LARGE RIFLE PRIMERS and see what, if any difference you get.

My guess is that you don't need more powder you need better ignition, but that's just a guess.

 

[Butzbach]

Alternatively . . .

You could just continue to enjoy your flintlock simulation.

 

[DaleA]

you need better ignition, but that's just a guess.

Emphasis added. That sounds reasonable but that is 100% of the expertise I can contribute to the thread. Hope others with some real knowledge will chime in or you'll come back to this thread if you figure it out.

Butzbach------I do like this site.

 

[kilotanker22]

Yes I know I need better ignition. I was considering the possibility that those being a ball powder might make it more difficult. I have used BLC-(2) without issue and I believe that burns slower than varmint does.

 

[hounddawg]

How did you come up with that load data Kilo ? Neither QL or GRT have PPV listed, I was going to volunteer to see if I could duplicate but having second thoughts about that now. Alliant does not show .308 in their PPV load data. I don't mind swapping bullet and primer.

 

[kilotanker22]

How did you come up with that load data Kilo ? Neither QL or GRT have PPV listed, I was going to volunteer to see if I could duplicate but having second thoughts about that now. Alliant does not show .308 in their PPV load data. I don't mind swapping bullet and primer.

I found the data I started with on Federal Premium's reloading data site. They list PP Varmint with the 165 grain Trophy Bonded Tipped bullet. They list a maximum load of 44.7 grains of Varmint.

reloadingdata.federalpremium.com/federalreloading/recipe/?setId=29

 

[Bart B.]

I've had ignition delays with Remington small rifle primers in 308 Winchester loads at temperatures in the low thirties.

 

[kilotanker22]

I've had ignition delays with Remington small rifle primers in 308 Winchester loads at temperatures in the low thirties.

Ambient temperature was right around 32 F.

 

[kilotanker22]

The idea to add more powder is to aid in ignition by filling the case with more powder. When more powder is ignited at once, it should improve ignition as evidenced by the hang-fires improving as case fill was increased. I am weary though since If I fire these in warmer weather, I may find myself well over pressure.

 

[44 AMP]

Generally speaking, low temperatures slow the rate of chemical reactions, and high temps increase them.

A lot of work over a long time has gone into making gunpowders more temperature stable, and today powders are better in that regard than what we once had.

HOWEVER,

The principle is still in effect, and even if the effect is less than it once was, its still there, and that's why we ALWAYS work up top level loads in the heat of summer. A load that does not exceed max working pressure in the heat of summer WILL NOT exceed that pressure in the cold of winter. The opposite is not guaranteed to be true.

Also while % of case fill might change the degree of your problem, I have doubts about it eliminating it,

Lighting off 40+grains of powder is asking a small primer to do a lot. I think its on the edge of what the small primer can do, and asking it to light off that much of a difficult to ignite powder in freezing temps is simply expecting too much, even if the small primer is a magnum.

I still think you should repeat your test, as closely as you can duplicate it, using regular brass that takes large rifle primers. I expect you'll have different results, even in freezing weather.

I don't have any .308 Win that takes small primers (nor any .45acp that does, either). Don't know where to look, not interested and wouldn't accept any as a gift. IF there is any benefit to using small primers in .308, I don't know what it is, and I doubt it would apply to my guns and my shooting.

Good Luck, I hope you solve your problem.

 

[kilotanker22]

Generally speaking, low temperatures slow the rate of chemical reactions, and high temps increase them.

A lot of work over a long time has gone into making gunpowders more temperature stable, and today powders are better in that regard than what we once had.

HOWEVER,

The principle is still in effect, and even if the effect is less than it once was, its still there, and that's why we ALWAYS work up top level loads in the heat of summer. A load that does not exceed max working pressure in the heat of summer WILL NOT exceed that pressure in the cold of winter. The opposite is not guaranteed to be true.

Also while % of case fill might change the degree of your problem, I have doubts about it eliminating it,

Lighting off 40+grains of powder is asking a small primer to do a lot. I think its on the edge of what the small primer can do, and asking it to light off that much of a difficult to ignite powder in freezing temps is simply expecting too much, even if the small primer is a magnum.

I still think you should repeat your test, as closely as you can duplicate it, using regular brass that takes large rifle primers. I expect you'll have different results, even in freezing weather.

I don't have any .308 Win that takes small primers (nor any .45acp that does, either). Don't know where to look, not interested and wouldn't accept any as a gift. IF there is any benefit to using small primers in .308, I don't know what it is, and I doubt it would apply to my guns and my shooting.

Good Luck, I hope you solve your problem.

I agree with you.

I have zero issues with Varget. Although, Varget is extruded and much easier to ignight.

 

[kilotanker22]

I will have to buy some 308 brass that has large pockets, or some ammunition to shoot for brass.

 

[44 AMP]

Just out of curiosity, what rifle are you using and what got you into using .308 brass with small primers to begin with??

I can see a potential theoretical advantage in a bench rest gun, with certain powders under match conditions, possibly... but none of that applies to me, my .308s are sporters, bolt and lever, or milsurp designs like my M1A, or FAL.

I don't see how anyone would get into shooting and reloading the .308 Winchester without having the standard brass with large primer pockets, but if you don't, go get some, its common and cheap as anything is these days.

 

[hounddawg]

reloadingdata.federalpremium.com/federalreloading/recipe/?setId=29

well that is my learned something new for the day. Thanks, I am planning a range session tomorrow so I will load a few with LRP's and some with SRPs and post my results

 

[kilotanker22]

Just out of curiosity, what rifle are you using and what got you into using .308 brass with small primers to begin with??

I can see a potential theoretical advantage in a bench rest gun, with certain powders under match conditions, possibly... but none of that applies to me, my .308s are sporters, bolt and lever, or milsurp designs like my M1A, or FAL.

I don't see how anyone would get into shooting and reloading the .308 Winchester without having the standard brass with large primer pockets, but if you don't, go get some, its common and cheap as anything is these days.

Rifle is a Browning X-Bolt Hunter long range. The one with the walnut stock and adjustable comb. While it is a hunting rifle by design, I do a lot of target shooting at the range with all of my rifles. When I purchased the rifle last year, I was only able to get 40 pieces of brass from factory ammo I bought with it. Then ammunition was nearly impossible to get and there was no large rifle primer brass for the 308 at the time I needed it. I purchased the Lapua Palma brass, because at the time, it was the only brass I was able to find.

I shoot my 6.5 Creedmoor rifles, both hunting and target, with small primer brass, with powder that burns a fair bit slower than any of my 308 powders without issue. I presumed, that the faster burning powders used in the 308 would be ok as well. My theory has thus far been proven correct when using appropriate extruded powders, and BLC-(2) which is also a ball powder and slower than Power Pro Varmint. So to answer your question, I am using small primer in my 308 hunting rifle because when I needed brass that is all that was available.

 

[kilotanker22]

reloadingdata.federalpremium.com/federalreloading/recipe/?setId=29

well that is my learned something new for the day. Thanks, I am planning a range session tomorrow so I will load a few with LRP's and some with SRPs and post my results

So you have said powder and bullets? I can give you my OAL info too. OAL was 2.795", this put the cannelure just forward of the case mouth and the base of the bullet right around the shoulder neck junction.

 

[hounddawg]

So you have said powder and bullets? I can give you my OAL info too. OAL was 2.795", this put the cannelure just forward of the case mouth and the base of the bullet right around the shoulder neck junction.

plenty of the Pro Varmint and 450's but I will be using 168 SMK's seated at 2.80. Doubt the bullet will make a darn. I will primarily be concentrating on LRP loads but will load 5 with 450's at 42.0 and another 5 with SRP at 44.4 just to see if I get any hangfires. The Lapua Palma are antiques, 12 years old with about 30 firings on them

edit - just looked and I have about 75 of 168 Hornady Match's also, but like I said I doubt bullet choice could cause a hangfire,

 

[hounddawg]

wel Kilo it looks like you need to try a different batch of primers. I shot 37 rounds of it today with no hangfires. Some of the best groups I ever got with that rifle. I used Lapua cases for the SRP's and Starline for the LRP. I decided on SMK 168's for bullets


I started with 5 rounds using CCI 450's with 42.0 gns of powder 5 rounds with CCI 450's using 44.5 gns of powder. For the large primers I shot 27 rounds which were fired in 3 round groups using CCI 250's. Best group with CCI 450's was the 44.1 group @.621 inches with the CCI250' I had 9 rounds go into.571 MOA using 43.2, 43.5, and 43.8 three rounds each. At 42.3 was a 3 round group of .251

Rifle is a Savage 10 action , MDT chassis, Shilen barrel, Clearidge scope, and a Harris bipod

I think you either have a bad sleeve of primers or are getting light strikes from the firing pin.

 

[kilotanker22]

wel Kilo it looks like you need to try a different batch of primers. I shot 37 rounds of it today with no hangfires. Some of the best groups I ever got with that rifle. I used Lapua cases for the SRP's and Starline for the LRP. I decided on SMK 168's for bullets


I started with 5 rounds using CCI 450's with 42.0 gns of powder 5 rounds with CCI 450's using 44.5 gns of powder. For the large primers I shot 27 rounds which were fired in 3 round groups using CCI 250's. Best group with CCI 450's was the 44.1 group @.621 inches with the CCI250' I had 9 rounds go into.571 MOA using 43.2, 43.5, and 43.8 three rounds each. At 42.3 was a 3 round group of .251

Rifle is a Savage 10 action , MDT chassis, Shilen barrel, Clearidge scope, and a Harris bipod

I think you either have a bad sleeve of primers or are getting light strikes from the firing pin.

Thanks man, all of my 6.5 Creedmoor cartridges are being loaded from the same sleeve. And the 308 I loaded with Varget. I have had this powder for a few years and it was a few years old when I got it. The powder looks and smells good though.

I have a sleeve of CCI #41 I will try.