Crankylove
New member
I would have no problem using that caliber or load. As long as it isn't a Texas neck shot, it should do fine.
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308 Win for Elk
- Thread starter rodwhaincamo
- Start date
Would you trust conventionaly constructed bullets of 180 grns from a 308 Win for Elk
I hunt Idaho in very big terrrain, big ups and downs, for me to kill an elk demands the best. You must be prepared for any angle for your shot, try a running 40 degree uphill quartering away shot through brush. They don't always just stand there pretty like the hunt videos. A nosler or barnes will do things nicely. I have never had an elk go more than 75 yards after being hit. Deer are usually DRT. Having killed 4 elk and many many deer with both a 338 and 30-06, I know what it takes for me to put venison in the freezer. Now you sound like you might be in flatter terrain and if you have the time to pick ONLY broadside shots you could be fine with lesser bullets, I won't do it. Why risk it??
I hunt Idaho in very big terrrain, big ups and downs, for me to kill an elk demands the best. You must be prepared for any angle for your shot, try a running 40 degree uphill quartering away shot through brush. They don't always just stand there pretty like the hunt videos. A nosler or barnes will do things nicely. I have never had an elk go more than 75 yards after being hit. Deer are usually DRT. Having killed 4 elk and many many deer with both a 338 and 30-06, I know what it takes for me to put venison in the freezer. Now you sound like you might be in flatter terrain and if you have the time to pick ONLY broadside shots you could be fine with lesser bullets, I won't do it. Why risk it??
Shot placement being everything doesn't really need to be repeated. The problem is that most are better shots on a forum than in the mountains with a 30 MPH cross wind, totally out of breath, 0 degrees with numb fingers, no good rest to be found, and an elk that doesn't want to be shot.
I much prefer Nosler Partions for everything from coyotes up. Am wondering why you wouldnt just by a box of premimum bullets for elk hunting? A single box should last for years. Doesnt the animal deserve the best?
The animal doesn't deserve the best bullet money can buy. The animal deserves the best skill that a hunter can learn. Shooting one box of premium bullets over several years does not earn a hunter any skill in the accuracy department. If one box is going to last several years then you are not serious about your sport.
When I got invited to hunt black bear in Alaska in 2006 I decided on the 200 grain Nosler Partition for my bullet of choice. I didn't choose the NP because I thought the bear needed it, I chose it because they were simply on my bench and I had been collecting bullets as soon as I saw the price start to skyrocket. However I blew through 100 of these bullets just in load development and practice at the range before the hunt. So I had to shell out another $45 to buy another 50 bullets to hunt with.
I only shot three rounds in AK, one to verify my rifle was zeroed when I got there. One to drop the bear right were he stood, and a second to make sure he didn't think about getting up. I don't chalk this success up to the fact I used a premium bullet, it was because I spent the time at the range to know exactly what kind of shot I was capable of.
So if you truly are going to develop your shooting skills as a hunter the animal deserves you to spend as much quality time at the range as possible and I’m not talking about just from the bench. I know some people will shoot a standard bullet then switch to a premium for hunting. My way of thinking is if you aren't willing to practice with a bullet you probably shouldn't hunt with it either.
If you are willing to put in the practice and be the best field shot you can be then you will know which shots you can make and the ones you can't regardless of which bullet you use. Confidence in your ability is a large factor, and if using a premium bullet helps your confidence then by all means. Don't think for a minuet however, a premium bullet will make up for lack of skill.
Taylorce1, I hear that a lot also. But, it's a little like riding a bike don't you think? I lost interest in just shooting probably 20 years ago. Last year I shot a rifle maybe 8 times. I killed a bull elk with one of those shots, and a nice 10 point whitetail with another. The other shots were to check the scope was where it was when I shot it last and confirm trajectory.
Don't get me wrong, practice is important for anybody to develop as much skill as possible. But, the notion that one has to shoot target after target forever to be able to hunt effectively is exaggerated IMO. Plus you don't need to practice with your $40/box ammo.
Don't get me wrong, practice is important for anybody to develop as much skill as possible. But, the notion that one has to shoot target after target forever to be able to hunt effectively is exaggerated IMO. Plus you don't need to practice with your $40/box ammo.
Taylorce1, I hear that a lot also. But, it's a little like riding a bike don't you think? I lost interest in just shooting probably 20 years ago. Last year I shot a rifle maybe 8 times. I killed a bull elk with one of those shots, and a nice 10 point whitetail with another. The other shots were to check the scope was where it was when I shot it last and confirm trajectory.
Don't get me wrong, practice is important for anybody to develop as much skill as possible. But, the notion that one has to shoot target after target forever to be able to hunt effectively is exaggerated IMO. Plus you don't need to practice with your $40/box ammo.
Yes I do believe it is more than just like riding a bike. I can ride a bike but I can't compete in a serious race without practice and dedication. I don't want to ever be just an average as a hunter so I choose to practice.
If shooting paper is boring find different things to shoot. I like to shoot steel gongs and 20oz drink bottles filled with water. Just get a little creative and realize you don't just have to shoot paper for groups to get in your practice.
Ammunition is cheap even cheaper when you reload. If you can't afford to spend a little time and money to practice you probably shouldn't hunt IMO. I don't put but probably 40-50 rounds a year through most of my big game rifles, but I do shoot them enough to be familiar with how they perform beyond 100 yards.
I shoot mainly my varmint rifles just because of the economy, and to hone my shooting skills. I reload my big game cartridges for the same reason, I can reload at least shoot double for the same amount of money vs. buying factory ammunition. If you don’t want to spend the money to practice that is your choice not mine.
Again until anyone can show me definitive proof that a 180 grain bullet will out perform a standard hunting bullet at .308 velocities I’ll still say you don’t need them. John Nosler only invented the Partition because standard bullets failed at close range out of a .300 H&H to penetrate a mud encrusted Bull Moose. Barnes recommends that if you normally use a .308 cal 180 grain bullet to drop at least to 150-165 to get the velocity up so they work reliably in the .308/.30-06.
Standard cup and core 180 grain bullets in .308 calibers have been designed to work at .30-06 MV of below 2800 fps and the .308 Win does all of that. Give me a.308 Win with 180 grain Sierra GK/PH, Speer Hot Core, Win PP, Rem CL, or Hornady Interlock and I’ll take any elk on within the OP’s original parameters. I wouldn’t be afraid to punch it through the shoulders either or take extreme angle shots within reason. By that I mean any shot that doesn’t take me through the paunch on either entrance or exit.
Taking into consideration the original question. I would be interested to know the answer to this hypothetical question:
If the cost of a premium round was exactly the same as a standard one, factory or handloaded, which would you use?
Wouldn't matter, so flip a coin, spin a bottle, or close your eyes and point, they will all do well in a .308 Win. At .308 Win velocities a standard bullet is going to perform just like a premium bullet. At normal velocities a standard bullet will mushroom and maintain 60+% of its original weight. Which is about what the Nosler Partition and other bonded bullets do out of magnum rifles pushing bullets past 2900+ fps. The Mono metal premium bullets out there that will maintain 90+% of its original weight but they recommend to step down in weight in standard calibers.
If you can't afford to spend a little time and money to practice you probably shouldn't hunt IMO
I had to chuckle when I read that. For whatever reason I just don't find blowing a hole through the vitals of a big animal using a rifle and scope very hard to do.
rodwhaincamo
New member
I shall soon be handloading, and intend on using Nosler Ballistic Tips (180 grn). I don't think they are built any better than a conventional bullet other than the poly tip. I expect to lose up to 1/2 of the weight, which is why I would opt for the 180 grn bullets.
Marketing hype? Maybe a little. There doesn't seem to be many shots that don't work, but I'd prefer a little leeway.
I believe that Partitions are a waste. Nice that there is the rear half that stays intact, but I've read some comparisons that show the front often blows up leaving 1/2 the weight. May as well buy 3 Xs as many Ballistic Tips with improved Ballistic Coefficiencies.
And cost is a major factor for me. I believe in using a bullet that performs identically (or close enough) for practice. I can't afford Triple Shok X Tipped for all of that. But were I to find a BT didn't do well I could jump up to using Accu Bonds with identical BCs for hunting.
I am not skilled enough to make any super range shots. I understand the trajectory well. Wind drift is where I would have problems, and my was it gusty everywhere I went through and around the southern Rockies (New Mex and Ariz). Because of that I would keep my shots to 300 yds. Maybe with lots of practice or a sure fire way to measure wind speed I could bump it to 400 yds. Until then....
I had my mind set on the 7mm-08, but would like the bonus of a larger caliber and heavier bullet. Not to mention the availability of ammo (surplus as well). May try my hand at black bears one day.
Thanks for all of the advice!
Marketing hype? Maybe a little. There doesn't seem to be many shots that don't work, but I'd prefer a little leeway.
I believe that Partitions are a waste. Nice that there is the rear half that stays intact, but I've read some comparisons that show the front often blows up leaving 1/2 the weight. May as well buy 3 Xs as many Ballistic Tips with improved Ballistic Coefficiencies.
And cost is a major factor for me. I believe in using a bullet that performs identically (or close enough) for practice. I can't afford Triple Shok X Tipped for all of that. But were I to find a BT didn't do well I could jump up to using Accu Bonds with identical BCs for hunting.
I am not skilled enough to make any super range shots. I understand the trajectory well. Wind drift is where I would have problems, and my was it gusty everywhere I went through and around the southern Rockies (New Mex and Ariz). Because of that I would keep my shots to 300 yds. Maybe with lots of practice or a sure fire way to measure wind speed I could bump it to 400 yds. Until then....
I had my mind set on the 7mm-08, but would like the bonus of a larger caliber and heavier bullet. Not to mention the availability of ammo (surplus as well). May try my hand at black bears one day.
Thanks for all of the advice!
Edward429451
Moderator
308/180 is plenty for Elk. We had a Nosler Partition Fail and we still got our Elk. Good placement by son.
Christchild
New member
Stalking to 200 yards and using a 150 TSX as fast as I could push it would make me happier.
Roger on'nat!
.308 Win. and a 180 gr. bullet will surely take an Elk, even at 300, but I wouldn't want to try that shot unless I thoroughly knew the trajectory and was a little on the hungry-side. But 1, You don't need 180 grains of bullet to kill an Elk, and 2, .308 Win. is not the best .30 caliber cartridge to toss a bullet that heavy...180 gr. should be kept to 30-06 or more. Accuracy will likely suffer.
In regards to the question of, "Standard or premium, factory or handload"...I prefer premium handloads, hands down. Not all bullets perform the same, even more so when velocities are thrown into the equation. A standard copper jacket/lead core bullet, say Interlock RN, won't necessarily expand the same as a bonded bullet of the same brand/weight/style/caliber, out of the same cartridge, loaded to the same velocity. The bonding process uses heat which anneals the entire bullet, softening it...
I'm a .270 Win. Fan. A 110 gr. Nosler Accubond will NOT expand the same nor (in general terms) retain the same percentage of weight as the 110 gr. TTSX, at the same velocity or not. Nor will a 110 gr. Hornady SP perform the same as the 110 gr. TTSX, at any velocity. Yes, dead is dead, but the advancements in bullet "technology" are more than marketing, it's the search for a better bullet...and for many'a good reason. Accuracy, proficiency and ethics are #1 because shot placement is "king", but bullet performance plays a vital role in a humane harvest.
I'd say use the 180's if that's all You have, but I'd look for something more suited to all the details of the task.
rodwhaincamo. You will probably be fine with the balistic tips, but
I have to disagree with you. Worth every penny and great for reloads. A truly superb bullet.
I have used them for Elk and Moose and have never had any regrets. When you hit, you know you have, and on the unfortunate occasion you have to trail them they don't go far, and they leave a lot of blood to follow.
I believe that Partitions are a waste.
I have to disagree with you. Worth every penny and great for reloads. A truly superb bullet.
I have used them for Elk and Moose and have never had any regrets. When you hit, you know you have, and on the unfortunate occasion you have to trail them they don't go far, and they leave a lot of blood to follow.
rodwhaincamo
New member
Christchild: I like the idea of the 180 grn bullet for several reasons.
1) I can afford a little weight loss and still penetrate fairly well, especially were it to break up on bone.
2)Nice sectional density. My understanding is higher SD's penetrate better.
3) I can figure bullet rise/drop much better than wind drift. The 180 has a better ballistic coefficiency, thus less wind drift. The 168's are nice, but come with a higher price tag.
It's not that I feel a lighter weight bullet is nearly useless. Just that I'd like a little leeway since I'm not using a powerhouse. I would use a 165 gr bullet were it bonded or solid.
Pongo: Petzal's article in Field & Stream Aug '05 claims as a downside to it, "Because it loses considerable weight as it expands, it does not penetrate as well as some other bullets, and it leaves a small exit hole that does not always give a good blood trail."
For the cost of Partitions I'd get a bonded or solid bullet. They won't lose the ratio of weight and in theory would penetrate better if needed. This is why I don't believe they are worth the expense.
Were I to want something like that I'd chose A Frames.
1) I can afford a little weight loss and still penetrate fairly well, especially were it to break up on bone.
2)Nice sectional density. My understanding is higher SD's penetrate better.
3) I can figure bullet rise/drop much better than wind drift. The 180 has a better ballistic coefficiency, thus less wind drift. The 168's are nice, but come with a higher price tag.
It's not that I feel a lighter weight bullet is nearly useless. Just that I'd like a little leeway since I'm not using a powerhouse. I would use a 165 gr bullet were it bonded or solid.
Pongo: Petzal's article in Field & Stream Aug '05 claims as a downside to it, "Because it loses considerable weight as it expands, it does not penetrate as well as some other bullets, and it leaves a small exit hole that does not always give a good blood trail."
For the cost of Partitions I'd get a bonded or solid bullet. They won't lose the ratio of weight and in theory would penetrate better if needed. This is why I don't believe they are worth the expense.
Were I to want something like that I'd chose A Frames.
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I would use a 165 gr bullet were it bonded or solid.
I would suggest you don't use solids on Elk.
Pongo: Petzal's article in Field & Stream Aug '05 claims as a downside to it, "Because it loses considerable weight as it expands, it does not penetrate as well as some other bullets, and it leaves a small exit hole that does not always give a good blood trail."
That's the thing. Nosler partitions tend to exit, and that usually leaves a good blood trail to follow. I believe around 30% weight loss and due to the fact they tend to exit I would have to say they do penetrate well.
Edit: Maybe I misunderstand you when you say solids. Are you talking about Barnes X bullets and the like? They would be okay.
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rodwhaincamo
New member
Pongo: Yes, sorry I didn't clarify. My daughter isn't feeling well so I made the end quick. I meant solid expanding.
30-30remchester
New member
EDWARD429451, I myself having seen many many game animals shot with Nosler Partitions, along with many proffesional hunters in Africa have never seen a Partition fail, am interester in details of your failure. Everything man made can fail so any imfo will be interesting.
Pongo: Yes, sorry I didn't clarify. My daughter isn't feeling well so I made the end quick. I meant solid expanding.
No problems. Sorry to hear your daughter is not feeling well. I hope she gets better soon.
so I made the end quick
Yes. That is the problem with the internet. There must be many misunderstandings...but it can make things interesting for bystanders.
Edward429451
Moderator
He hit him right in the shoulder and the bullet blew up. Elk had a 2" hole in the shoulder so he didn't go far and a followup kill shot was needed. I feel that the NP should have punched through that bone without blowing up. Maybe I was too fast and too close. It was 41.5 gr 4064 / 180 NP and shot at about 75 yards. We got the Elk so were successful but I still call it a failure of the bullet.