308 War

.308 can never be .30-06.
It just doesn't have the case capacity.
As such, neither can the 'lever gun .308s'. (.307 Win and .308 MX)


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To clarify a few points on .307 Win (7.62x51mmR) and .308 MX:
When "Winchester" decided to chamber a ".308 equivalent" cartridge as the new flagship for the Model 94AE Big Bore*, they also decided to use the thicker case walls of their 7.62x51mm cases, rather than the thinner walls of .308 Winchester. Some people argue that this was done to 'toughen' the cases, so they would be more difficult to damage while cycling through a lever gun. Others argue that it was to aid in containing pressure greater than the 94 was ever designed to handle. I have no opinion on the matter, other than disagreeing with the latter.

So, .307 Winchester cases were, at least initially, a rimmed version of 7.62x51mm, or 7.62x51mmR; and loaded to slightly lower pressure (52k CUP). Later on, Winchester got lazy or failed to consult original drawings when new tooling was made (multiple times, possibly), and case walls have been made both thin and thick since the '90s.

Like Winchester with .307 Win, Hornady and Marlin wanted to get in the game and made some choices about their own cartridge. They took .307 Win, pushed the shoulder back to prevent .308 Win from chambering, cut the neck shorter to work with a bespoke 160 gr FTX bullet, and opted for the thinner case walls of later production .307 Win cases, in order to regain some of the capacity lost to the long bullet, shoulder relocation, and short neck.

For .308 MX (and .338 MX that was driving development), Marlin also wanted to run slightly higher chamber pressure than .307 Win, but the standard 336 couldn't handle it. So, they made changes to the rifle, as well. Most notably, heat treating was a bit different, tolerances are tighter, and they went to a V-thread instead of the classic Marlin square thread (saving precious receiver and chamber wall thickness in the process).

To me, the most impressive thing about either of the 'lever gun 308s' is that they can get so close to .308 Win velocities with 160-180 gr bullets, but with lower chamber pressure. Some Hornady Superformance loads even exceed the velocity of some equivalent .308 Win loads. On the other hand, the 'lever gun 308s' fall on their faces with light bullets, when compared to .308 Win.


*.307 Winchester was the first chambering available when the Big Bore 94AE was released.
 
"Not only more velocity and greater energy 'oomph' (fps/fpe), but the '06 in hunting trim can push the heavier (200gn, 220gn) bullets faster. Try finding factory .308 hunting ammo loaded with 220 RN/SPs @ 2400+fps."

I have a better question. Where can you even find a box of 220 gr. factory ammo. I've been looking for just one for years to finish out a test I sarted several years back.

First, I'm somewhat doubtful a factory 220 gr. 06 load will do 2400 FPS. Bear with me. I was playing with a wild (?) idea and decided to see just what a .308 Win. could do shooting 220 gr. bullets. I used Winchester brass and WLR primers, W760 for the powder and carefully worked up the load in a Winchester M70 Youth Ranger I won in a raffle and restocked so it would fit me. Data was from one of those one book/on caliber books.

W760:
Start: 42.0 gr./2177FPS/42,000 C.U.P.
Maximum: 44.0 gr./2295 FPS/46,900 C.U.P.

I reached the posted maximum with no trouble and velocity was 2310 FPS. I also ran the load through a Ruger M77 RSI with 18.5" barrel and velocity was 2250 FPS.

I need a box of the 220 gr. 30-06 loads to chronograph to see if they actually do 2400 FPS or actually less.

My reasoning stems from a velocity check of 180 gr. .308 vs 180 gr. 30-06. The .308 averaged 2615 FPS and the 06 2630 FPS.:eek:

This kind of looks to me that at least in factory ammo using 180 gr. bullets the .308 and 30-06 are equal at least in my rifles. :cool:

FWIW, I also ran the 30-06 load through rifles with 24" and 26" barrels and the only time they came close to advertised speed was from the 26" barreled Ruger #1 at 2690 FPS. All speeds were five shot averages.
Paul B.
 
Try finding factory .308 hunting ammo loaded with 220 RN/SPs @ 2400+fps."
I have a better question. Where can you even find a box of 220 gr. factory ammo. I've been looking for just one for years to finish out a test I sarted several years back.

I need a box of the 220 gr. 30-06 loads to chronograph to see if they actually do 2400 FPS or actually less.
Click to expand...

HSM has a 210gr Berger VLD at 2,508fps that is the heaviest bullet for a factory .308 load that I see. BTW the same load in 30-06 is at 2,534 fps for a whopping 26fps advantage.

Factory 30-06 220 gr loads.

Federal 220gr Speer HC SP 2,400fps.
Remington Express 220gr Core-Lokt 2,410fps.
Sako 220gr Hammerhead 2,362fps.
 
The 30-'06 is factory loaded to a lower maximum pressure than the 308. We can speculate as to why this is so; I expect it has to do with keeping much older rifles from blowing up. But for hand-loaders using rifles readily capable of handling magnum pressures, the 30-'06 has a lot of potential to safely increase its power by simply using optimal powders and loading to the same pressure as, say, a 270 Winchester. This would produce ammo that is technically over-pressure for that caliber, but not for the rifle or brass. Since the 308 Winchester is already loaded near this maximum pressure, it has less performance to be gained safely with hand-loads, though I'm sure it can be optimized to some extent. I believe that the 30-'06, loaded in this manner, will perform midway between the 308 and the 300 Winchester magnum. At least my rifle-nut-brother says so, though he was actually coming closer to the 300 Magnum with at least one of his '06 rifles.
The 308 is good, so is the 30-30 and 300 Savage. They all do a good job in the hunting fields and kill game just as dead as the 30-'06, even though none of them are quite as powerful. Big deal; I think we all spend more time arguing the relative merits of our favorite calibers when we ought to spend more time in the fields and forests. If only this modern life would allow us to do so.....
 
With a tread title like this, how can I RESIST! ;)

I put up with a little more weight(less than half a pound) in my light weight 3006 to get 2900 fps with a 165gr bullet and a 308 will not do that safely. and that extra 300 fps adds more than a little energy advantage to the 3006.
Click to expand...

Not sure why you think that will beat a 308 by 300 FPS?

http://m.federalpremium.com/ammunition/rifle/caliber/308-win/vital-shok-trophy-bonded-tip/p308tt4

There are two versions of this ammo loaded by Federal and my own handloads with the Trophy Bonded are 2860 FPS.
 
Where can you even find a box of 220 gr. factory ammo. I've been looking for just one for years to finish out a test I sarted several years back.
Click to expand...

Dude, where've you been? In a Rip Van Winkle time-warp zone? :rolleyes:

Worc nailed the answer.

In 30-06, there are several 220gn loads:

Factory 30-06 220 gr loads:
Federal 220gr Speer HC SP 2,400fps.
Remington Express 220gr Core-Lokt 2,410fps.
Sako 220gr Hammerhead 2,362fps.
Click to expand...

Yep, and that doesn't even touch what you might be able to do with well-crafted handloads.

Let's see any .308 load do that without hand-grenadining in the chamber on the primer strike. :eek:
 
With a tread title like this, how can I RESIST!

Quote:
I put up with a little more weight(less than half a pound) in my light weight 3006 to get 2900 fps with a 165gr bullet and a 308 will not do that safely. and that extra 300 fps adds more than a little energy advantage to the 3006.
Click to expand...
Not sure why you think that will beat a 308 by 300 FPS?

http://m.federalpremium.com/ammuniti...ed-tip/p308tt4

There are two versions of this ammo loaded by Federal and my own handloads with the Trophy Bonded are 2860 FPS.
Click to expand...

You can then add Hornady Light Mag 165gr SP at 2,880fps, Hornady Superformance 165gr SST at 2,840fps, and Nosler 165gr AB at 2,800fps. Then there are a plethora of other 165gr loads that are well above 2,600fps.
 
BeeShooter, as a generality, many rifles today in .308 and .30-'06 have 22" barrels. With factory loads, the muzzle velocities for 150-grain bullets are close to the same.

I handloaded for a 26" '06. Based on comparisons with friends shooting .308s on my 500-yard range, I was maybe 300 ft/sec faster. :)
 
I don't have a 'Dog in the Fight' because I own both; a .308 and 30-06 hunting rifle. Specifically, a 1959 Winchester 88 in .308 and 1950 Winchester 70 in 30-06. I've hunted more with the 30-06 as that's what I had when I was a kid, however, I've shot more recently with the .308 as I love the Win 88 platform over a bolt action. Both are scoped platforms.

My observations are this (in no particular order):

The .308 caliber is more likely to be slightly more accurate than the 30-06 because it's easier to achieve a high case density with most powders because of the smaller case. However, Win 760 powder was developed for the 30-06 to take advantage of the bigger case and give it higher velocities ≤ 200fps with the added bonus of a higher case density too.

The 30-06 caliber can push a higher weight bullet faster, however, for North American game animals, both calibers are perfectly capable using 150grn - 180grn bullets at humane hunting ranges.

Commercial 30-06 ammo produces a higher Recoil Energy and Recoil Velocity for a given bullet weight than the .308. This is in part because of the slightly higher velocities, however, the recoil energy increase percentage is considerably more than the velocity percentage increase. (See Chuck Hawk's Rifle Recoil Table on ChuckHawks.com)

In hunting, bullet type and placement have proved to be much more important than the extra 100fps (or less) between 150grn or 180grn commercial .308 and 30-06 and with that, the slightly better accuracy of the commercial .308 rds, coupled with their reduced recoil energy and recoil velocity provide the shooter with a slightly better opportunity to make 'the right shot.'

For me, the difference between the 2 calibers is more in what your are comfortable shooting rather than the performance differences of the calibers. However, each of you have your own favorite and I say, "Whatever works for you is the best choice."

EDIT TO ADD:

I also have an M1 Garand in 30-06 and an M1A in 7.62x51 and handload 150grn, 165grn, and 168grn HPBT for both. My son and I use them to shoot at steel plates at 400yds with the irons they come with. Using a non-standard M2 Ball (147grn M80 bullets) and standard M80 Ball loads loaded at a chrono'd velocity of 2,820fps for both, neither has any advantage. The M1A, loaded with 20rds actually weighs only 1oz more than the M1 Garand with 8rds so they are virtually identical weight wise. Firing them feels nearly identical and they both recoil about the same, only moderately.

Firing them with equal loads with 165grn and 168grn bullets, still produces no apparent differences in feel. However, the M1 Garand with it's NM sights and Criterion barrel is every bit the match for the NM M1A. So, again, it comes down to personal likes. My son loves his M1 Garand as he loves the look and feel. I prefer my M1A in large part because the M14 was my Basic Training weapon. Go figure.
 
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Art- If you want to shoot a particular bullet at a particular speed and the 308 has that capability, use the 308. Other than that and down loading the 30-06 there is no reason to suggest that there is any similarity between the two other than the fact that both are .30 caliber.
 
The accuracy issue depends more on individual rifle than whether it's 308 or 06
With a lot of loads, on paper there isn't much difference.
 
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