.308 vs .223

Keeper

New member
I don't want to open up a can of worms...but I am going to anyways. :) I keep hearing people say that the .223 has better stopping power inside of 150yds then the .308 I would not want to get shot with either but I would think that the .308 would have more stopping power at any range. I don't think there is anything wrong with either round and there are rifles that I want in both. I have heard that the ballistic reports of the .223 yawing inside the body are not true. Is this what people are talking about when they say that the .223 has better stopping power inside of 150yds?
 
Ya know this topic has me wondering alot.....

What has more Stopping Power?

A .22 Short to the temple from Contact range...

or

A 458 Winchester Magnaum to the foot at 10 yards.

PLACEMENT is everything!!!


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Schmit, GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"
 
If you believe them, there are Martin & Sanow-type one-shot stop (OSS) statistics out now on .223, and the .308 168-gr BTHP (NOT designed to expand--the tiny hollowpoint and thin jacket just collapse onto the front of the core...).

Almost all shootings are inside 100 yards, and all of them are either 99 or 100 percent OSS.

I belive that the OSF--one-shot failure--statistic would be more valuable to know. But since M&S won't release their base data, no one can determine it without more work than I want to do this week...
 
I agree completely, placement is everything. I guess that the people I am talking about are part of the spray and pray crew.
 
In general, the .308 is gonna leave a much larger exit wound than a .223, particularly at closer ranges. "In general" does not mean "every time", since bullets, tissue, bones and such create strange situations...

If the .223 bullet hits at a distance such that it does not blow up, it will tumble. Most pointed, flat-based bullets do this, including the AK round.
 
>are part of the spray and pray crew<

Personally I subscribe to the "Front Sight... P R E S S" tactic. :D


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Schmit, GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"
 
I think there's no doubt that a properly loaded .308 (something with good expansion) has better stopping power than a .223.
If you're wondering why the U.S. Armed Forces use .223, it is because research has shown that in war, it is better to throw a greater number of light-weight bullets (.22 cal.) than fewer number of bigger bullets (.30 cal), and that marksmanship had very little to do with success on the battlefield. See AR15.COM on the development of the M16 rifle.
 
Is the question: "If all things are equal, namely: same bullet type (FMJ), identical shot placement, and at ranges under 150 yards. Which cartridge will produce more damage?"

Or is it: "What cartridge is available in the most devastating load?"
 
With 20" barrel AR-15, under 150 to 200 yards, there is NO WAY IN HELL an FMJ .308 would have more incapacitating (wounding) / killing than an FMJ .223 in soft tissue NO WAY!!!!

A .308 FMJ would just penetrate soft tissue to more than ten inches before it yaws and eventually travel base forward at eighteen inches. The .223 FMJ from 20 inches barrel under 200 yards would not only yaw, but it would have its base disintegrate only after four inches of penetration in soft tissue. The pieces from the disintegrated base would act as shrapnels, perforating and weakening the tissue surrounding the temporary cavity that is stretching that tissue like crazy. The perforated and weakened tissue would not be able to withstand the stretching effect, and they just got torn away, creating MASSIVE temporary cavity that is as big as a golf ball! A .308 bullet would just leave a hole the size of a .30 slug, and enlarged to about .38 at the exit wound (providing it hit a skinny person squarely from the front).

If the standard .308 FMJ is oh soooooo deadly, why did the West Germans construct a .308 bullet with very thin metal jacket behind the cannelure, hmmm? The reasons they wanted to do that are:
(1) They want the base of the bullet to disintegrate, creating the "shrapnel" effects that would perforate and weakened the tissue surrounding the temporary cavity.

(2) The disintegrating base would cause the bullet's center of gravity to shift, causing it to thumble, creating bigger temporary cavity that would stretch the hell out of the weakened tissue that was perforated by the pieces coming from the bullet's base. That would cause the weakened tissue to be torn away, creating gigantic permanent cavitation. If you got hit with this round in blood rich organs like your liver, you better say your prayer because you're a gonner within five minutes. Forget about the docs saving your life!

Let's face it, when it comes to incapacitation capability under 200 yards (20 inches barrel AR-15), 5.56 mm fmj is much superior than any 7.62 mm fmj slug, unless you're a sniper making shots beyond 300 yards. Then, 5.56 mm would be pretty much uselless! If your enemy is behind really really thick bushes or well barricaded, forget 5.56 mm, too. You'll need lots of rounds to hit him. In that situation, you'd be better off with a bolt action 8 mm Mauser or a .303 Lee-Enfield than any 5.56 mm assault weapon.

Cheers!
Johannes
 
Discussion of ballistic performance based purely on a caliber seems rather pointless. Would anyone say the M193 and M855 are equal because they're both 5.56mm NATO rounds?
 
I don't have much experience with the .308, but I do have extensive experience with the .223. The one thing that is always ignored when the .223 is discussed is the rifling twist of the barrel it's being fired from, and it makes a tremendous amount of difference. With 55 gr FMJ ammo, you can have a barrel twist anywhere from 1/14 down to 1/7, and there is one hell of a lot of difference in the wound characteristics with the same bullet fired from the different barrels.

A 55grFMJ bullet from a 1/14 barrel is just barely stabilized, and will flip end over end upon hitting almost anything. One from a 1/7 barrel is much more likely to go straight through, with better penetration and wounding, but at the cost of lessened energy transfer and reduced stopping power due to the bullet exiting with more residual energy. This is one reason there are such wildly conflicting stories about the M16 either being next to useless, or the finest killing machine ever issued to the military, as the performance of the bullets varied so greatly.

The one most people know of is the M16A1 (or the civillian version SP-1), issued with the 1/12 twist light barrel. This rifle had the reputation of being next to useless in brush, as you could fire a whole magazine at something you could see through the undergrowth, and never hit it. It also had the reputation of being a stone killer if you had a clear shot, leaving a small hole on entrance and huge gaping wounds on exit. This was mostly due to the bullet being just barely stabilized in that slow twist barrel, they were easily deflected by brush, but the same thing that made them so aggrivating in the brush made it a remakably effective weapon in the clear, the round had an almost unbelievable wound channel in soft tissue due to the unstable bullet.

I have no proof of this, but I suspect that the rapid twist of the M16A2 and heavier 62gr bullet were partly to increase the penetration, and partly to produce more humane wounds, which, to the military mind, is preferable to killing as it causes the enemy to overload his support system, reducing his morale and effectiveness.

I know the story about the long tracer bullets, but the ones I've fired seemed to go no better in the A2 than in the A1, with lots of flyers in either one, so I'm not really sold on that particular story.

There are some local coyote hunters who illustrate this theory well, they all like the 1/7 barrels over the older 1/12 as there is less chance of leaving gaping holes in the pelts. One fellow who started with an SP1, ruined a few pelts and was of the mind that the .223 was too brutal for that type of hunting, but changed his tune around with the installation of a newer 1/7 barrel. He is a happy camper now, as he always liked the rifle, just not the bullet.

If you can fire a 1/7 and a 1/12 side by side with 55 gr FMJ ammo, try them on water filled milk jugs sometime, you'll see the difference. You'll really see it if you place two or three jugs in a row front to back and shoot straight at the front jug. Ballistic gelatin is better than jugs, but most people don't have any. You can't use 62gr ammo in a 1/12 barrel, it won't stabilize at all and will be going sideways at about 50 feet. In the 1/7 barrel it penetrates even deeper and gives a straight wound channel. Hope this helps.

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With my shield or on it...
 
Johan: What you are saying is true IFF you are comparing STANDARD military rounds (62 gr 5.56 NATO vs. 168 gr - I think - 7.62 NATO) at standard vels. But it really depends on what bullet weights & vels you are talking about and the thickness of the bullet jacket as well as some other factors I may not have considered. A lighter .308 bullet going the same velocity as a .223 with the exact same bullet type as a 62 gr .223 bullet will have very similar if not identical terminal ballistics events, and of course will certainly do a little more to much more tissue damage.
 
Futo:

You're absolutely right, and I was talking about standard US 7.65NATO vs. 5.56 X 45mm.
Like I said, the German's 7.62NATO bullet would have its base violently disintegrated (due to very thin copper jacket)and the pieces would act just like shrapnels. Meanwhile, the bullet's center of gravity would be instanteneously shifted, causing it to thumble, stretching and ripping the perforated and weakened tissue surrounding the wound chanell, creating a massive tissue loss.

Cornered Rat:
Just grap a cleaning rod and patches (make sure it is tightly fitted to the bore, so it would "spin" or "turn"). Mark your rod with a dot or a very thin line parallel to the rod axis. Insert the rod into the bore, and watch the line or mark that you made on the rod to rotate a full 360 degrees (until it one full revolution). After that, just mark your rod at the portion just outside the muzzle. Now you can just measure the length of the rod that went inside the bore after one full rotation was completed. So if 10 inches of rod went inside the barrel, then your rifling twist is 1 in 10". I hope I made my self clear.

Johannes.
 
Hey Rat,
Go to the Ruger homepage and look up the mini 14. They have a chart that goes by serial number that will tell you. If your gun has a higher serial number than they list, your gun most likely has a 1/9 twist. Also, if you call up Ruger, they will tell you...
 
Keeper, 1 shot one kill inside 150 yards? What are you trying to say? If the M193 or the M59 came unto your forehead you would be
in "time out" or something like that!
Now if you want to talk about the old M-16 and the tumbling bullet you can ask Gunny about it. It was taken away too soon for some purposes I think!
Good Shooting, Hank
 
The main reason I asked the question is a purchase decision that I made recently. I save up enough to buy a nice pistol or rifle every year and a half to two years. This year I ordered a springfield M1A (that I am still waiting on). I had to make the choice between it and a Bushmaster AR-15. I wanted both badly but I went with the M1A thinking there might be a surplus of AR-15's next year after things cool down from Y2K. :) Like I said, I don't have anything against the .223 I was just surprised when a lot of people kept telling me it was a better round than the .308.

It is better to have a gun and not need it than to need a gun and not have it.
 
Check our links to Firearms Tactical, the on-line magazine which discusses different aspects of ballistics and bullet performance. There's an article very relevant to the discussion here.

.308 or .223? I'll chicken out on this one since I wouldn't want to get hit by either.

Cowardly yours,

4v50 Gary

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
 
Keeper, I am enjoying your thread very much.
In all honesty, a lot of what you hear about the .223 vs .308 is because more match shooters are moving to the current military configuration. Remember the M14 had a pretty short lifespan with the govt. The M14 was tuned up further than the M1 could be for match shooting and won quite a bit of favor with the match shooting community. Now all of the trick ideas are being applied to the M16 and it is quite a shooter! I'm pretty oppinionated about my firearms but I agree!
It all boils down to "assuming you hit your target where you want" "this may make the .223 types more suitable for some" Bullet design, velocity, weight and energy at range
will usually tell the tale.
Start a discussion about this at ranges longer than 600 yards and you will really open up a can of worms!
Again, Good Thread!
Good Shooting, Hank
 
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