.308 or 30-06?

D

Dogger

New member
Can you folks give me the pros and cons of the two cartridges? I have heard that the .308 is more accurate. I have heard that the 30-06 is more flexible in terms of bullet weights and powder loads. Surplus ammo is cheap for both... at my local gun shop I can buy surplus ammo for $5-6 a box of 20 for either. I know that the 30-06 adds about a 100fps given a factory bullet weight, but the deer ain't gonna know the difference.

Why do I ask? I am trying to make my mind up between a CMP Garand M1, a Savage Model 10 heavy barrel (24 inch) bolt action, or a Browning A-Bolt Hunter.

Purpose is primary deer hunting, second shooting fun, third home defense.
 
Of the three mentioned rifles, the Browning in 308 Win. would be my chioce for the stated purposes, though the M1 in 30/06 is were my heart would be.
 
I'm in the same conundrum as Dogger regarding these 2 calibers. I will use the gun primarily for deer hunting also. But which caliber to get .308 or 30/06. I know I will probably go with Ruger or Weatherby when I finally decide to get the gun. I just can't make up my mind which caliber is the best.



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Know Yourself, Know Your Weapon, Know Your Enemy; then Know Victory! ---DaHaMac
 
The .30-06 is more versatile simply because it can be loaded down to .308 velocity, but the .308 cannot be loaded up. About the only place where the .308 outshines the .30-06 is in a small, lightweight rifle. If that's your primary requirement, go .308. Otherwise, take the extra half-inch of action length penalty and go .30-06.
 
308 V 3-006
The only thing I can really say about them is that both are accurate with the RIGHT bullet and/or load. The 308, I believe has a different twist [1-12?] than the 30-06's standard 1-10.
 
I handload, so I stay with my '06. If bullet-weight is a concern, the '06 is more accurate with the 180- and 220-grain bullets. The slower twist mentioned by Madison indicates the .308 would tend to be more accurate with 110-grain bullets, and maybe a little better with the 150-grain.

For your stated purposes, the Browning in .308 would do quite well. If you don't handload, the '06 is not that much better, generally, than the .308 for deer-hunting with a 150-grain bullet.

DaHaMac: I have a Weatherby Mark V, with what they called "#2 Profile", 26-inch barrel. It's now about 30 years old. I never could get the original trigger to be as good as I thought it should be, so I installed a Canjar. I tweaked the bedding, doing my un-patented wax-paper shim trick. I have some 4,000 rounds through it. I guess. It still shoots well inside one inch at 100 yards.

Comparing with a friend's 19" barrel, .308, with me using my '06 handloads and him using some sort of "quien sabe" GI ammo, at 400 yards I was holding a foot less elevation and almost a foot less windage.

I will say it's not the lightest thing to tote around all day. Same as an M-1.
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FWIW, Art
 
Ah, now we are making some headway. I certainly will reload, its looking more and more like I cannot escape the good ole aught-six. I like the heavier weight bullet
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Maybe I can compromise and go with the 30/06 in a deer rifle and if I ever get a AR15 type rifle I'll go .308 instead of .223. I guess I need to start saving for that Weatherby Mark V synthetic, I hope its worth the extra $300+ compared to the Ruger MKII 77 Allweather.

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Know Yourself, Know Your Weapon, Know Your Enemy; then Know Victory! ---DaHaMac
 
Got to put my .02 in here. Both cartridges are great for deer hunting. No argument there.
As to rifling twist. Winchester uses 1 in 12 inch as does Browning, FN, H&R,Husqvarna,Mossberg 800,Savage 99,110, 2400, Sako,Stevens 110,Winchester 70,88, 100,670, and 770.
All other brands are 1 in 10 inch.
BTW. I have two model 70's that will shoot 3/8's inch groups all day with 220 gr. bullets at 2350 FPS, so anyone that says 1 in 12 does not stabilize the heavier bullet just hasn't tried it. I first learned that they would stabilize when I had a custom 30-06 made up with a 1 in 12 inch twist barrel. Had some 220's I wanted to burn up, and got a very pleasant surprise. Don't believe everything you read in the gun rags.
Paul B.
 
With the Hornady Light Magnum loads, you can (theoretically) have a .308 with the power of a 30-06, or you can have a 30-06 with the power of a .300 Win Mag, and so on.

Hornady doesn't offer much in terms of bullet choices, though.

I think I would go with the -06. More versatility in terms of powder charges and bullet weights.

I'm no expert when it comes to rifle loadings, so all this could be wrong.



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"Anyone feel like saluting the flag which the strutting ATF and FBI gleefully raised over the smoldering crematorium of Waco, back in April of ‘93?" -Vin Suprynowicz
 
I guess this all goes back to what's the primary interest. Purely from reading, I would think that if one were a competitive bench rest shooter in 30-caliber, the .308 would be the choice.

If one is hunting "150-grain bullet sized" deer at under, say, 300 yards, the lighter weight of a short action might favor the .308.

It seems to me that as to versatility, the .308 would be quite happy with everything from pipsqueak squirrel loads on up to around 180 or 190 grains. The '06 seems to do better with--I dunno--165- or 180-grain bullets on up to 220-grain.

In the regular factory loads, in comparing the 150-grain loadings (I guess that's the most commonly used load?) there is little difference. That is because of a lesser pressure in the '06 due to all the older rifles chambered for it. Roughly, 51,000 to 53,000 psi reported for the .308, vs. 47,000 to 49,000 for the '06. That's why handloading for the '06 makes such a difference.

Paul B.: don't doubt it a bit. Purely opinion, but if you were pushing the velocities up a bit, to around 2,550 or 2,600, it might not work out as well. Also, a pointed boat-tailed bullet, being rather long at 220 grains, might need the 1/10 to stabilize. A flat-based round-nose at lower velocities might be quite "happy" at 1/12. Just guessin'; no big deal.

I guess if I'm on any "kick" with rifles, it's the issue of barrel length. I've read so many articles through the years about the effect of barrels under the standard 26" test length for published velocities of factory loads...Per inch, it runs around 50 to 70 ft/sec velocity loss from 26". Cutting back to a 19" carbine length, then, means some 350 to 490 feet per second slower than "the book". "How to turn a .308 into a .30-30"?

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, Art
 
Just another $.02.
I grew up over these past 50 some years shooting 06 and case related stuff (270, my personal fav and 25-06 a great med, LR varmit & deer round)

My Dad introduced me to the 06 because he used it before WWII and after an liked it. He was not a reloader.

Look at what is available today....All kinds of extra performance ammo that as recently as 10 years ago was not around.

If you can't find what you want you can have some custom reloading house roll some for you.

The flexability of the 06, in my opinion still outshines the 308.

You want to see performance.....try a factory load in (one of the special) 165 and 180 grn loads out of one of the new Browning 1885 High walls with a 28" bbl. We are at less than an inch....now put in some cooked loads and we fall below .50"....thats shooting.

Art has a point with twist but I have had my best luck with this round at 165-180 grn.

When it comes right down to it, after we have flooded your brain with more information than you really wanted to know....buy what you like....you can always trade latter....

Oh yea...what the hell do you want an AR for.....
Huntschool

"single shot shooters only shoot once"

[This message has been edited by huntschool (edited April 23, 2000).]
 
Thanks for the input... altho I am like a weather vane constantly shifting positions in the wind.

I have a Marlin 30-30 now for deer hunting and want to pick up a second rifle to take my 15 year old along. Hence the primary purpose for the new rifle is deer hunting, second fun shooting, and third home defense.

Interesting comment from Art about turning a .308, with short barrel length, into 30-30 performance levels. Why would I go with a .308 or a 30-06 if I sacrifice barrel length and lose performance? Seems like a lot of manufacturers offer most of their .308 and 30-06 offerings in 22 inch barrels. Ruger's Number 1 is 26 inches, Savage offers a bolt action in 26 inch and a 24 inch...

Browning seems to be 22 inches and that is it.

Heck, should I even bother with a .308 or a 30-06 in a 22 inch barrel?

Seems that for less money I could buy a Marlin 336 Cowboy lever action rifle with a 24 inch barrel -- this I think would give me the most oomph out of the 30-30 cartridge. I don't know the difference betwen the "ballard rifling" in the 336 cowboy versus the "micro-groove rifling" in my current 20 inch barreled Marlin.

Appreciate your dialogue...
 
The velocity loss per inch of barrel depends on several factors, but it's mainly the size of the bottle - a big-bottle .30 like the Weatherby will lose/gain more per inch than a little bottle like the .30-30. I think 70 fps is probably toward the upper end of the spectrum. For .30-30/.308, the number is more like 25 fps. That's a loss of 200 fps from 26" to 18".

Also, some reloading manuals use 26" pressure barels to get their load data, but some use actual guns (Hornady, I think). It may be worth your while to take a look at the velocity differences.
 
Marlin's micro-groove rifling has more lands and grooves than conventional rifling, and the grooves are shallower. I don't know what the advantage is. The disadvantage is that the grooves are too shallow to shoot lead bullets - the bullets will "strip" rather than spin. The cowboy guns have the conventional rifling because lead bullets are required in cowboy action shooting. The micro-groove works fine with copper jacketed bullets.
 
Too many unknowns. The three guns you mention are not in the same category at all. If you want a woods hunting rifle, settle on the Browning or any number of other fine rifles from Winchester, Remington, Ruger, etc. If you want a verminter, the Savage is a good one, but .30 is the wrong caliber. If you want a historical piece and target rifle, the M1 is fine. But carry the M1 in the woods all day? Been there, done that. No fun.

The .30-'06 is a good cartridge, available anywhere, and with lots of milsurp available. The .308 is the same but has the same advantages it always had - near .30-'06 power in a smaller package that can use a shorter, lighter rifle.

Jim
 
Jim, you said it well.

I am floundering all over the map, and will continue to do so, until I get down to my "requirements".

What do I "need"? Versus what do I "want"?

I "want" a 30-06 M1 Garand and a Browning .308 A Bolt Hunter and...
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But what I "need" is a second rifle for Eastern white tail deer hunting. I have a Marlin 30-30 now. Would make sense and save $$$ to go with another one for ammo compatability... My local gun shop will sell a new Marlin 336CS for $360. They have a consignment Remington Model 7 in .308 for $425. They have a new Savage 10FP in .308 for $399.

But what I really "want" is a mild-recoiling, butt-kicking centerfire rifle that shoots sharply pointed bullets at four legged deer and puts them down permanently, with ease, with one shot out to 200 yards. And oh by the way, this rifle is fun to shoot, and oh by the way will do nicely for home defense, too.
 
I am not sure any of these rifles are going to be the most prudent home defense system. For CQB inside of your home, you are talking a bad choice. Any misses are going to send a large bullet hurtling through your house and most likely out into the neighbors house as well. If you are talking about holding off rioters or other adversaries down the block, then the M1 sounds like a good choice due to its semi-auto capability. Me personally, I would not want to get in a close range gun fight with a bolt action rifle.

I just bought a Remington 700 Varminter Synthetic (26") in .308. A very nice gun. I also have a Remington 700 in .30-06. I have the best of both worlds!

My suggestion, forget about this gun being a good home defense weapon unless you are talking about external threats at distances of over 300 yards or more. Sounds to me like you already have a good deer gun out to 200 yards, go with the M1 while you still can buy em. And you might want to go through the CMP so you don't spend an arm and a leg. And if it is for hunting, I am thinking you are better off with the 06, you just have more options. I mainly wanted a Remington 700 in .308 since I already have an M1A in .308. Compatable bullets are a plus.
 
Get a .308- unless you are a law-abiding citizen who wants to shoot armor-piercing rounds, in which case, get a .30-06, since it and .223 can, by the leave of our gracious betters, be allowed to fire said ammo.

A BLR would be a great choice for you, if it came in .30-30! You can, however, get one in .308, or '06. A Savage 99 sounds like it would be ideal for you, if you could find one...
 
Dogger: The consensus of multitudes of posts, here, on such as the Rem. Model 7 vs. the Savage is that they're both good, but the Remington has the superior trigger. You don't have the extra expense of trigger-replacement as is commonly recommended for the Savage.

Again, for your STATED purpose, the .308 is as good as the '06.

As far as home defense, the Marlin is already a pretty good critter. Light, handy, maneuverable and a pretty good rate of fire. ANY rifle is going to present a certain amount of problem with over-penetration; only you know your probable scenarios...

FWIW, Art
 
For eastern deer hunting - I did rather well with a simple Marlin lever action in .44 mag.
Stalking the deer to get a good range and angle. Very satisfying hunt. That said - a Aught Six is more gun than you need IMO... and a .308 can be had in a nice handi little rifle that would make long walks in the woods more enjoyable.
 
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