308 Mil Spec v. Commercial

D

David13

New member
I have been offered some free .308 that was provided to a sniper who doesn't snipe any more, and thus has no use for it.
It was issued by the (US) government.
I thus assume it is mil spec.
I would only use it in my Savage 11/111 Trophy Hunter. Which should use commercial grade.
I have heard of some controversy that the mil spec has a different cartridge wall or something that may change the pressure.
Would it be ok for me to use that, or not?
Thanks
dc
 
Phil, it's amazing how a slight difference in chamber specification and different units of pressure used in the SAAMI spec vs. mil-spec have produced such a profoundly misinformed public. Still goes on today.
 
Thanks Phil
That looks like a rather thorough approach to the issue.
I think that what you are saying is there is a pressure difference, which is not significant, and that reloaders should treat the cases differently.
I also posted on calguns. I'm interested in what response I get there.
dc
 
So, I am pretty new at this stuff and didn't understand. I too have match grade ammo used by the Army Marksmanship Unit, its nomenclature is M118LR. It was designed for the M24, not the same ammo used in the M240 series medium MG. I understand that those loads are quite different but don't understand how the M118LR is different from any match grade ammo I would buy at my LGS.
 
Chase, everybody loading ammo, commercial, military arsenal, handloaders, all develop their loads based on what they think is accurate and safe. They all used different measuring tools and have different standards and specifications.

FALPhil's link is an excellent reference.

Commercial match ammo is often based on SAAMI specs.

Arsenal made match ammo is based on military specifications; MIL SPEC.

They're not exactly the same and do not use the exact same pressure measuring systems. I doubt the velocities claimed are measured with the same systems. MIL SPEC rifle cartridges' chronograph screens are centered 78 feet (26 yards) down range. Commercial stuff uses shorter ranges; 15 to 20 feet is common.
 
In a nutshell 7.62X51 and 308 are 2 names for the same thing. The military loads ammo and makes rifles to very slightly different specs. This concerns some people, but if you were to carefully measure ammo pressure between different manufacturere of 30-06, 270, 243, or any other ammo you'd find just as much, or more variance. Same thing with rifle chambers made by Remington, Winchester or Savage.

You can buy 30-06 factory ammo that shoots 150 gr bullets at speeds ranging from 2700 fps to 3100 fps. My loading manuals show loads ranging from 39,000 psi up to 64,000 psi. This doesn't seem to cause a concern, but differences of only a fraction of that seem to bother people when comparing 7.62X51 and commercial 308.

It is possible that you might find a particular rifle, with a particular load that may cause issues when shooting commercial ammo in a military rifle. Most likely in a semi that does not cycle reliably. But you are just as likely, maybe more so, to find that a certain brand of ammo may cause issues in your semi-auto 243 or 30-06.
 
David13,

Milspece "sniper" ammo is current issued M118LR. The SOCOM sniper ammo is M118LR Mk316 Mod 0. Both use the 175 SMK bullet, but all other components between the two are different (Re15 vs. IMR4064, Arsenal primer vs. Fed GMM primer, LC Arsenal brass vs. Fed Match brass).

Older lots of ammo include M118 Special Ball, and M118 Match, both with 173gr FMJBT (the old M72 match bullet).

If your sniper friend isn't passing you off actual milspec ammo (such as a Fed Law Enforcement agent) it is more likely that you are getting commercial match ammo, either Federal GMM or Black Hills Match (both have been issued to my knowledge).

Jimro
 
Somebody on calguns had a suggestion. Ask Savage.
"Savage Arms does not recommend the use of any military surplus ammunition. As stated in the owner's manuals, you should only shoot the caliber that is stamped on the side of your barrel."
That's the answer to their question 762x51 in a Win.308.
I suppose they are just trying to err on the side of caution.
dc
 
Savage is likely more concerned with a) your happiness with accuracy when shooting mil spec versus commercial ammunition which they might believe you would see as poorly reflecting on their rifle or b). You getting hold of some crappy foreign 7.62 ammunition that is poorly q/c'ed and blowing your rifle up.
 
I have never, to my knowledge, shot milsurp sniper rounds. What I do notice is milsurp 7.62 ammo bullet weights range from 145-148 gr. Again the sniper stuff may be different.

My M1A will shoot them just fine. My bolt gun will not. Where I can get good groups with 168-175 gr. bullets, the bolt gun will scatter handloads or any commercial loads of 155 gr. bullets or milsurp. Some rifles will stabilize the lighter bullets but mine will not.

I have tried pushing them fast or slowing them down. The only difference is the time it takes the bullets to shotgun:mad:
 
I have never, to my knowledge, shot milsurp sniper rounds. What I do notice is milsurp 7.62 ammo bullet weights range from 145-148 gr. Again the sniper stuff may be different.
Click to expand...
The nomenclature doesn't refer to "sniper" cartridges. The so-called "sniper" cartridges used by US marksman are denoted M118 and M118-LR and Mk316. The M118 loadings used a 173 grain bullet, and the M118-LR and Mk 316 use a 175 grain bullet (all, as far as I know, are Sierra MatchKings).

The other loadings with lighter bullets are/were intended for M14 and automatic weapons use (though presumably snipers/marksmen may have used them if/when the "sniper" cartridges were unavailable).
 
The point I was making is that I have shot a lot of milsurp ammo in my M1A and it works fine. That same ammo does not work well in the Rem 700.

To my knowledge, the surplus ammo that I have shot is all around 145-148 gr. and nothing heavier. That is the most likely reason the Rem does not like them.

I don't know all the military nomenclature for all the rounds they use or any special purpose rounds.

I would guess my bolt guns would shoot the bullets you describe just fine

I would like to try them.
 
David13, about the only thing I can think of with that GI ammo is that it may not group as tightly as you'd want. Then again, it might. But it won't hurt anything to shoot it.
 
I've shot 7.62 NATO M118 match rounds in two different Win. 70 factory match rifles; excellent accuracy, about 5 inches with the arsenal 173-gr. FMJBT bullet. So did hundreds of competitors in 1968, 1971, and 1976 using Model 70 match rifles in the international Palma matches; again with about 5 inch accuracy at 600 yards and almost 9 inches at 1000 yards.

M852 7.62 NATO match ammo with Sierra 168's been shot in my Hart barreled bolt guns; three different lots that shot about 5 inches at 600 yards in two different barrels.

Even some Western Cartridge Company .308 Win. match ammo (WCC95), made under contract for the military for use in M14 rifles as well as some sniper bolt guns. It had 175-gr. bullets over some ball powder. It shot about 6 to 7 inches at 600 yards in a bolt gun.

All these bullets were at least .3082" diameter. My Hart barrels were .3078 groove diameter that shot the 168 and 175 gr. bullets with .3082" diameters so well. The 173's were .3086" diameter and shot well in the Winchester factory barrels with .3083" and .3084" groove diameters; none of the 168's or 175's shot well in these factory barrels; about 8 to 10 inches at 600.

geetarman, I think your 7.62 NATO bullets weighing in the upper 140's for weight had diameters of .3075" to .3079" if they came from a USA site. All the LC, Remington and Winchester M80 ball ammo I've measured bullet diameters on were in this range. They've never shot really accurate in any barrel I've shot them in. But good enough for 2 MOA at 600 yards which is about spec for them. If you Remington barrel's groove diameter is bigger than them, thay may well explain why they don't drive tacks.
 
Well.
Out at Burro Canyon today someone was inquiring who was shooting .308 and was referred to me.
He had CBC 762 51 and it was next to impossible to eject. The bolt was jamming on it.
I let him try 2 of my PMC .308 Win. No problem, easy eject.
The only thing I could tell him was that he had mil spec and ...
Therefore ... ergo ...
I do notice also that there was a recall on CBC and that it is ... MagTech.
I have seen posts about MagTech. Not good ones.
Up in Beaver Utah last week they tried to sell me MagTech. They highly praised it, and asked me what problem I had with it. Not I says me, but others have posted that it jams.
So what did this guy have?
dc
 
There have been reports of CBC ammo with an over pressure issue. Similar to the Indian ammo that was going around a few years ago.

Bottom line on surplus ammo, sometimes it was surplused for a reason.

Jimro
 
Bart,

The surplus I have is South African, DAG, Prvi Partizan. The South African dates back to 2004. The other is current production.

I don't shoot any of the surplus in my bolt gun. I shoot handloads and have run some Federal Trophy as well as some other commercial . Everything that is at 165 gr, or heavier seems to shoot just fine. Commercial ammo in the 155 gr. range from any manufacturer just does not work.

I have worked up some loads with the Palma bullet. It did not matter if they were pushed at the bottom end of the loading tables or moving pretty fast. They just don't work in my rifle.
 
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