.308 LAPUA Palma brass

[reynolds357]

Guys over at Rimfire Central have had good luck with them, including the 50 @ 200 guy jaia who uses a Anshutz I use them in a pair of CZ 452's with good luck. Gave a half box to a guy at the range shooting a Ruger 10/22 with Volquartsen barrel, his first five shots at 50 yards with them were a bughole.

Like most 22's no guarantee but worth 8 bucks for a box next time you are ordering. Make sure it is the Target Match Pistol Special . SK also sells a Target Match Pistol which did not shoot nearly as well

I shot at 50 - 150 rounds of 15 flavors of various 22 LR last year. THese and RWS R 100 shot about equally, humble CC Std Velocity was a close third

I did not do any chrono testing, the piece of dung Labradar would not trigger of my rimfires without a special adapter and I had finished with the rimfire tests before I went back to optical

here are the BTO measurements of them however, not that that seemed to make a lot of difference. Of course how much of that was errors in my technique not the ammo is a unknown

Thanks. I will try some.

 

[Bart B.]

Best idea is develop a good load and work on your shooting technique instead of trying to buying the latest toy to increase your scores. That way the bullet will exit at the same point in the barrel whip every time and exiting at close to the same velocity so it's drop will be more consistent. I know that sounds like a lot of work but that is the way it is

All bullets fired will never do that. It requires all shots have exactly the same pressure curve, barrel time and muzzle velocity. Then the rifle has to be held exactly the same for each shot.

All bullets leaving at the same speed will have the same drop at target range, but their departure angle varies with barrel time. Tuners adjust the muzzle axis vibration frequency that's several hundred cycles per second. It can be tuned so the slower bullets leave at higher angles above the LOS.

 

[hounddawg]

All bullets leaving at the same speed will have the same drop at target range, but their departure angle varies with barrel time. Tuners adjust the muzzle axis vibration frequency that's several hundred cycles per second. It can be tuned so the slower bullets leave at higher angles above the LOS.

So are you saying a tuner eliminates inconsistent holds and other shooter errors?

what about faster shots, does a tuner automatically adjust so they leave at a lower angle ? Explain please. Since tuners are legal in F Class. I might just have to buy me one

edit - I guess what I am asking is if I have a load with a 25FPS spread (2750 - 2775) will a bullet leaving at 2750 exit at the same point that a bullet leaving at 2775 with a tuner? What about that same example without a tuner? If there is a difference with a tuner why ?

edit 2 - an interesting concept

http://www.stocks-rifle.com/smartstock.htm

 

[Bart B.]

So are you saying a tuner eliminates inconsistent holds and other shooter errors?

No.

what about faster shots, does a tuner automatically adjust so they leave at a lower angle ?

No. It has to be set to make that happen. There's no nervous system in the tuner to sense that. If it's set so average velocity bullets leave after slow ones and before the slowest ones, the entire velocity range will have good compensation.

What I am asking is if I have a load with a 25FPS spread (2750 - 2775) will a bullet leaving at 2750 exit at the same point that a bullet leaving at 2775 with a tuner?

Probably not.

What about that same example without a tuner?

No

If there is a difference with a tuner why ?

Tuners change the barrel's resonant and several harmonic frequencies

 

[hounddawg]

so basically a well tuned load as far as powder choice/powder charge/seating depth and primer selection does the same thing a tuner does. I can see where they would be beneficial in rimfire or for someone who does not handload

 

[Bart B.]

so basically a well tuned load as far as powder choice/powder charge/seating depth and primer selection does the same thing a tuner does.

No. If that were true, nobody would use tuners to make their best handloads more accurate.

If one's handloads have less than a 5 fps extreme spread, a tuner could reduce vertical spread a few SOA or more. All barrels that shoot the same small velocity spread won't have the same vibration properties.

 

[hounddawg]

No. If that were true, nobody would use tuners to make their best handloads more accurate.

maybe they don't have the patience or ability to can't get their ES/SD's down by load tuning. If you are in consistent single digits for SD and low teens for ES I don't see much of a purpose

 

[Unclenick]

By adding mass at the muzzle, the tuner slows the overall rate of bending in muzzle deflection. That causes a flat spot to be wider, so load error either in charge weight or due to change in temperature has less effect. In other words, it makes the sweet spot wider, which can be an advantage in some conditions.

 

[Bart B.]

If you are in consistent single digits for SD and low teens for ES I don't see much of a purpose

How many seconds of angle is the vertical spread of identical 308 Winchester .500 G1 BC bullets impact at 1000 yards with a 10 fps muzzle velocity extreme spread averaging 2600 fps out the muzzle at the same angle up from the horizontal?

What would the spread be if all bullets left at an angle that well compensated for the outer 80% of that drop (caused by the faster and slower muzzle velocities beyond SD) for each bullet?

 

[hounddawg]

By adding mass at the muzzle, the tuner slows the overall rate of bending in muzzle deflection. That causes a flat spot to be wider, so load error either in charge weight or due to change in temperature has less effect. In other words, it makes the sweet spot wider, which can be an advantage in some conditions

now that makes good sense, thanks

I knew a guy who was a very competitive rimfire and competed in 300 and 600 centerfire BR that made a rig with orings and neodymium magnets that he was experimenting with on one of his centerfire rifles. Unfortunately he passed a couple of years ago and I have no idea whether his idea worked. I have a nice selection of magnets and O rings, might do some playing to see what I can accomplish. I might be able to convince myself to have my next barrel threaded for a real tuner.

I am pretty sure I can hillbilly engineer something that will accomplish the same thing that one of those adjustable barrel dampening points like the one I linked to a couple of posts back. I might try an experiment with this summer. I checked a couple of rifles and a nylon zip tie is the perfect thickness to put between the barrel and the stock. Easily adjusted by loosening a action screw and using the depth rod on a caliper

 

[Bart B.]

I am pretty sure I can hillbilly engineer something that will accomplish the same thing that one of those adjustable barrel dampening points like the one I linked to a couple of posts back. I might try an experiment with this summer. I checked a couple of rifles and a nylon zip tie is the perfect thickness to put between the barrel and the stock. Easily adjusted by loosening a action screw and using the depth rod on a caliper

Remington tried such a device on their 40X target rifles. Two angled screws at the fore end tip, one at 4:30 o'clock and one at 7:30. All it did was change the pressure on one or both touch points as the stock fore end bent from varying external forces. Only totally free floating barrels whip, wiggle and vibrate 100% consistently from shot to shot.

 

[hounddawg]

Only totally free floating barrels whip, wiggle and vibrate 100% consistently from shot to shot.

so it is said, but then there is a lot of things that are said that are questionable. I like to find out for myself

 

[Bart B.]

By adding mass at the muzzle, the tuner slows the overall rate of bending in muzzle deflection. That causes a flat spot to be wider, so load error either in charge weight or due to change in temperature has less effect. In other words, it makes the sweet spot wider, which can be an advantage in some conditions.

Well stated. Thanks.

 

[Bart B.]

so it is said, but then there is a lot of things that are said that are questionable. I like to find out for myself

Here's a variable that prevents the most accurate rifle shooting the most accurate ammo into one hole groups:

What direction and how much the hand held rifle's bore axis moves after the primer fires and where it points as the bullet leaves.

 

[hounddawg]

What direction and how much the hand held rifle's bore axis moves after the primer fires and where it points as the bullet leaves

There is about a million and one things if truth be told. Last practice session I dug out my old shooting coat that I used in High Power but had never bothered with in F class. It threw my entire natural position off so bad my groups looked like they had been shot with a 12 gage. I stripped it off and went back to my sweatshirt and the groups immediately tightened.

I was planning on playing with one of my CZ's Friday but 15 mph winds are forecast so if I do it will just be for wind reading practice, no testing

 

[reynolds357]

Remington tried such a device on their 40X target rifles. Two angled screws at the fore end tip, one at 4:30 o'clock and one at 7:30. All it did was change the pressure on one or both touch points as the stock fore end bent from varying external forces. Only totally free floating barrels whip, wiggle and vibrate 100% consistently from shot to shot.

I would like to see that experiment repeated with a heavy Aluminum stock.

 

[Bart B.]

I would like to see that experiment repeated with a heavy Aluminum stock.

Any external force on the barrel that is repeatable from shot to shot will produce repeatable barrel vibration frequencies, directions and amplitude for all shots. M1 and M14 service rifles properly rebuilt have 2 to 3 dozen pounds of pull down force at the stock fore end ferrule. Best accuracy was with new cases handloaded with commercial match bullets. 2/3rds MOA at 600 yards was easy.

But they are twice as susceptible to throwing wild shots way off call near MOA when slung up in prone or sitting compared to bolt action rifles with totally free floating barrels. Happens when changing how the rifle's held or sling's adjusted. Windage zeros were a half to one MOA different from off-hand without the sling.

If the heavy aluminium stocked rifle weight is more than about 13 pounds, it won't be held very steady in field positions without artificial support.

 

[hounddawg]

common sense tells me that for a rifle with a forend touching the barrel that when slung up and variance in the force applied to the sling would cause various amounts if force/flex on the barrel. Angle of exit would be affected depending on the lateral force exerted from the sling tension. I have seen my heartbeat bounce the sight/scope when slung up on bad days. A free floated barrel would not be affected by the slings force on the stock. On a rifle shot from the bench with the forward stop and a light hold the pressure would be exactly the same each time

 

[Bart B.]

A free floated barrel would not be affected by the slings force on the stock.

Yes it would. The whole rifle moves in recoil before the bullet leaves the barrel. This is one reason why several people shooting the same rifle (barrel free floated) and ammo have different zeros on the sights. It's called "hot gunning" several people in a team match.

Been there, done that; won the team match.

 

[hounddawg]

Yes it would. The whole rifle moves in recoil before the bullet leaves the barrel

No kidding. I was talking specifically about a sling and the amount of force on the pressure point