3030 For small Elk

Is 3,000 ft/lbs not enough for deer?
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I read an article by some old timer before where he was explaining that boy, you better make sure that you'll have at least 250 Ft LBS of energy at the Deer or Elk to ensure a clean kill...

So yes, a 30/30 would be fine for Elk. Choose a good bullet that's not likely to break up, and pass on those 400 yd shots. My son took a big Elk with a 308/180 and he only went over one ridge and into the next ravine, perhaps 75 yds from where he was shot.

It's not the gun that matters, it's the shooter.
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There you go. ^
 
Peetza said:
mathteacher, did you watch the video post above?

If not, here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY0w1c-gf18

Makes it tough to argue against the 243. That's almost 700 yards. Must be 2 1/2, 3 times farther than the longest shot most hunters will take.

As long as you've got enough energy to reach both lungs, the ONLY thing that matters is shot placement.
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I don't know that I'd have taken that shot, but I'm simply amazed that there are places where you can see to shoot that far. I'm a Louisiana swamp hunter and 200 yards is a long, long way where I hunt. Still, it's hard to argue that the .243 won't do it. I find it interesting that they were using the 105 VLD, which I always thought was a target bullet, not constructed for game. I stand corrected.

I shot a little deer two years ago with a .243 at about 120 yards. I was using a 100 grain Remington Core-lokt pushed to over 3100 fps. The bullet took the little buck just behind the shoulder, exploded on a rib, and destroyed the on-side lung. The deer hit the ground, got up and walked into the woods. I found him about 40 yards away, DRT. When that bullet came apart, it destroyed the shoulder, and while the deer was very, very dead, I thought it was a pretty rude way to treat a game animal.

Interesting video, but again, I don't know if I'd have taken that shot without lots and lots of practice at extended ranges.

I do have a little .243 Savage 10 that I've been thinking about pulling the barrel and putting in a heavier barrel in a 1:7 twist. It's been something I've thought about for a couple of years and next year might be the time.
 
I wouldn't have taken that shot, no way.

In reference to the Core-Lokt, I saw the same thing happen with a 140gr Core-Lokt from a 7-08. Close range, bullet disintergrated. Killed the deer but didn't leave a good impression. That was my uncles deer, we both use Barnes TTSX now.
 
Brian, I watched the video and I must say that was quite a spectacle. How many elk have you actually killed. DIY? Bulls? Cows?
 
Brian you are soo right with your statement of a hole in both lungs and they are dead. Period. It amuses me as to how some folks act if they are offended if someone tries to shot anything larger than a possum with anything smaller than a belted magnum. Dead is dead. Of all the deer that I had taken in my life with every thing from .270, '06, 308, buckshot, 223 or what ever. All of them did one of 2 things. They either piled up right there or ran about 50 yards.
The 30-30 is plenty gun out to 150 yards or so. You can kill an elephant with a toothpick if you put it in the right spot.
 
rgrundy said:
How many elk have you actually killed. DIY? Bulls? Cows?
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Zero.

Does only personal experience count? Does learning from others mean nothing? I have a friend who has hunted near Paonia Colorado for many years. He hunts with a 47 pound bow. He's taken many elk and been told many times that 47 pounds is not enough. He has never failed to shoot THROUGH the elk, including a large bull, 6x7, I think. He knows quite a few people out there. He knows men and woman who hunt elk with a 243. On purpose, they have other guns.

I've also had this very conversation on this forum several times over the years.

You don't have to believe me. Doesn't matter. You use what you want, I'll use what I want. I've seen enough to know what works and what doesn't.

30-30 is enough gun for elk. So is the 243. You don't need a 338 Loudenn-boomer to kill them. Lots of people with lots of experience agree with me. Lots of people who *think* you need magnums because they've seen "Cartridge X" wound an animal, disagree with me. Elk are not that tough. Their lungs deflate when you poke holes in them, just like mice and elephants.
 
I've guided when I was younger and hunted them all my life so I know a little about it. I'm 64 and shot 2 last year and packed them out myself on DIY hunts. I know too that the only reason you need to shoot them that far away is that when it's cold and you drive up to them they get spooky watching the truck. You got lucky.
 
It's not the gun that matters, it's the shooter.
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Also "up to a point", though the shooter is the largest variable in the equation, by several orders of magnitude.

The gun matters, as does the bullet.

That super-duper 700 yard .243 VLD is a pretty thin skinned bullet, I understand ....... a close range shot would likely result in "the hickey from hell"..... the bullet disintegrating on contact.

As others mentioned about the Core-Lokts, I've had a light-for-caliber bullet come apart at close range- a .270 WIN 130gr Winchester Silvertip (it's been awhile- not sure if they even make those anymore.... I don't recall seeing them on a store shelf for at least 10 years) at about 15-20 feet.... made a wound about the size of my fist, and about as deep. Far side lung was intact ...... the deer went a good 100 yards, leaving a little blood ..... yes, he died ..... but I found him by pure chance- I was not real good at following a sparse blood trail ..... still not great at it. I've since switched to 150gr bullets- A nearly identical set-up: broadside 1 1/2 y.o. buck at 15-20 feet. The 150 gr bullet going slightly slower blew pieces of lungs out the 1" hole in the far side and sprayed them out in a nice pattern for a good 10 feet. This deer ran near 100 yards, but with every stride (or maybe each heartbeat?) there was a huge gush of blood sloshed on the ground that a blind man could not only follow, but would have to take care not to slip on and fall.......

The gun and bullet are a system.... The bullet has to be pushed fast enough to expand, and at the same time not so fast that it comes apart .... more mass helps as does modern engineering (chemically bonding the jacket to the core, Solid copper or guilding metal bullets, thicker jackets or other design elements such as dual cores (Partition/A Frame).... The bullet has to have enough mass and energy to penentrate deep enough to fatally damage vital organs..... sometimes under less than perfect circumstances.

Will a 30/30 or a .243 do that on an elk? Yes, but I think there are better choices. YMMV (and probably does).

By the same token, going to the other extreme is not good either- An 8mm Remington Magnum isn't a good elk gun, either, as the teeth rattling recoil in a gun light enough to carry all day would deter sufficient practice, at least by me.... a Barret .50 BMG is likewise overkill ... even the healthiest of us would not enjoy humping a 30 lb rifle in the high country......

But some folks like a challenge, I guess..... so if you think you can do it with a 30/30, go for it.... just don't complain when the only shot you get on your once in lifetime (or maybe it's a once in a year thing, you lucky dog) hunt is standing there quartering away at 250 yards .... a long shot for a 30/30..... a chip shot with a 7mm Mag ..... if the shooter is up to it.
 
Not sure if you've ever hunted Colorado, but 250 yds would be kind of an unusual shot here. Perhaps up in Wyoming you get long shots. The Elk are in the timber here and typical shots are 100 yds or less. A cake walk for a 30/30. You do have to use a good bullet but I think that how tough Elk are is exaggerated. If I were to take a 30/30 for Elk I would use a hardcast 311291, a 170 gr and feel totally confident in it inside 100 yds.
 
I've spent a good deal of time fishing in Colorado, but have not hunted elk ..... "timber" can spotty in places, between the pine beetles and burn areas ...... drove around for hours in the Hayman fire burn area in August ..... wide open spaces there. Did not see any elk. The grass was good, and saw a lot of Mulies, though! Seemed like every doe that we saw had twins..... sorry about the bad cell phone pic.... all I had.
 

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This animal was taken at approx 80 yards or so. 30-30 is a keeper!

Jack

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Seems like I remember this discussion from about 50 years ago.

If you take the opinion of everybody and average it out you get a range in the middle of cartridges that are appropriate for elk size game.

A seasoned hunter and rifleman can make a lot of those outside of that consensus work.

Doesn't make some of them a good choice for the multitude by any stretch.
 
in the Hayman fire burn area in August ..... wide open spaces there. Did not see any elk.
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That's because they moved to the timber. :-)
I'm not saying long shots are not there...just that they're not typical ime. I note that Jacks Elk was @<100 yds.

At the risk of offending some, and such is not my intent...but doesn't hunting involve stalking? If I see Elk at 250+ yds, I'm stalking closer. I think perhaps setting up for shots at inordinate distances is more of an ambush than hunting. Again, no offense, just my opinion of hunting.
 
Again, no offense, just my opinion of hunting.
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Doesn't offend me at all. Most of my elk hunting over the last three decades has been with a bow. It is a rush like no other.

But, if I am rifle hunting 250 yards is a pretty easy shot if you can get a good rest and the wind isn't too bad.

I don't see much point in proving I can get closer when I have been within 100 yards of more than I can count. It's amazing how many elk you can get within 100 yards of and how hard it is to close that down to bow range.
 
I have killed 3 elk in my life. The first was with a 308 the last with with a 357 magnum carbine, the middle was with a 30-30 :cool:

I think you will be fine. Just make sure you shoot it well and the gun will do its part.

The only one that gave me any trouble was the 357 carbine. The Elk was a young Cow elk I got to 50 yards and I aimed for the double lung shot, she took a step at the last second (forward and down hill in to a small wash)and the shot went back a little bit hitting the shoulder.The elk ran about 60 yards before it dropped.

While I love my 357 magnum marlin, it will not be going on any more elk hunts with me.
 
After guiding for elk for 9 years and nearly 5 decades of hunting them, I do have some experence. I have either killed myself or seen over 100 elk taken. The 30-30 with good expanding bullets of heavy weight should work if your aim is good and the range is close. It is interesting all the different experences people have. One experenced Colorado hunter said that his elk are found in the timber at close range. While my experences have been just the opposite here in Colorado. Elk are very tough animals and ofter take multiple hits to secure. Interestingly one respondant seems to think more than a few buffalo could have been killed with a 30-30. Sadly by the time the 30-30 came onto the scene, all buffalo hunting had stopped years before. However I have actually killed a buffalo with a 30-30 as strange as that sounds. The key to killing very large game is quality bullets and good shot placement. I believe the Federal 170 grain Nosler Partion bullet should be the best load. I have only killed deer with this load, but have shot and seen shot scads of animals with that bullet without failure.
 
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