300 vs 338

^True.

I have family in Alaska, and shooting at bears over 200 or 300 yards is looked at pretty poorly by the locals...Like "If you don't want your butt kicked, shut up and leave" poorly. They figure the extra danger involved in a wounded Brown Bear makes long shots a no no. They are real touchy about it because if someone doesn't recover it (actually illegal for a guide), it will be a local that blunders into it and gets mauled.
 
Shooting at game animals beyond 300, perhaps 400 yards under perfect conditions is not hunting, it is long-range animal shooting.

There no relationship between sportsmanship and long range animal shooting, the practice is strictly for Bozos.

A sportsman hunts - and tries his very best to get up close for a sure shot, a sure kill.

Blasting away at such a long range that the animal couldn't see you if you jumped up and down and shouted is despicable.
 
^ Thank you for being our collective conscience Balisti. I have a limit, but it isn't identical to yours. I guess I never realized I was a Bozo. Sorry if that offends you....no, no I'm not. I had typed a more eloquent response but will instead re-direct you to the piece of mistletoe on my shirt tail. I can't even begin to tell you all that is wrong with your statement. In fact, you seem so certain that you are right, that I don't think anyone could tell you anything at all.

Have fun reading Outdoor Life. They get things right...sometimes.
 
Also glad you stayed with us,BK.

I was hoping you had some experience already.Who are the Bozos now?;)

You,ll find out that with any firearms or hunting forums,that some people just can,t give a simple opinion to a simple question,as yours was.Example, A rifle vs B rifle. You almost always get the C and D rifles you never ask about.
Just keep posting and take some replies with a grain of salt.

Good second post,verifying a few simple mistakes.

Even with the addition of bears to the list,I would still stay with the 300.
I have a relative that took his Alaskan grizzly with a 300 win mag back in the 70s. Don,t know where in Alaska and don,t know the load he was using,but the rug is huge. He said one shot got him good,but his guide said give him another.I remember him telling me he thought the second was unnecessary,but I can,t remember the distances.

Good one Samsmix,I have to remember that one.:D
 
...if the right conditions allow it shoot up to 500 yards.
Click to expand...
This shows you still don't get it. THERE ARE NO RIGHT CONDITIONS AT 500y. At that range, even if your holdover is perfect AND you dope the wind perfectly AND your trigger pull is perfect AND your rifle is perfectly accurate such that the bullet will pass through the exact point you intend, the animal can still take a step or the wind can shift after you shoot but before the bullet reaches the target, turning a vitals shot into a gut shot. There is nothing you can do to prevent animals from moving or wind from gusting. Those things are out of your control.

It is simply impossible to shoot ethically at that distance no matter how perfectly skilled you may be.
 
^ Then don't do it if it offends your sensibilities. Better yet, why troll a room where you can see that long range hits on game is part of what the topic of discussion is? Let's get our facts straight:

Have you ever hunted on a still, windless day? I have. Have you ever shot an animal in it's bed? I have. Have you spent enough time watching the animals you hunt so that you know if they are about to move by their body language? I have.

That long shot on the Whitetail? I wouldn't take it now, and for a number of reasons, but I was younger then, less experienced.
That said, if I had a 500 yard shot from a cold barrel on a still day at an animal that was at rest, I'm pretty good to go. The average speed of a .30-06 bullet over a 500yard flight path is 2300fps (2900@muzzle, 1700@500yds). My bullet will cover this distance in just about 1/3 of a second. IF he starts to move AFTER I shoot, that deer is going to have to STEP ON A FRICKING LAND MINE to get his vitals out of the way of my bullet!
 
Llama Bob knows what he is talking about.

samsmix is full of farina - and he knows it. You can tell by how butt-hurt he gets over the concept of good sportsmanship.

I admire sportsmen, they are men of intelligence and good character.
 
^ Then don't do it if it offends your sensibilities.
Click to expand...
It's doesn't just "offend my sensibilities". It wounds animals in a way that takes days to die, is thus unethical, and hurts all hunters when the stories get out.

If you don't want people to call out your irresponsible behavior, don't tell anyone about it. Or better yet, don't do it.
 
Ballisti,

Your, "Blasting away at such a long range that the animal couldn't see you if you jumped up and down and shouted is despicable." indicates to me that you're not a hunter. I think you're more of an armchair commando.

Jump up & down and animals beyond 400 yards will think you're a fool. Deer species survive on their senses of hearing and smell.

I have shot a mule deer and an antelope at 400 yards in meadows that were miles long. Conditions were perfect. The worst shot I've made was about a hundred yards.

A .270 Win will kill game at distances farther than most hunters can shoot.

Know your rifle. Shoot a lot before leaving.

I have no problem shooting at 400 yards if conditions were perfect. And yes, there are perfect conditions in the Rockies. I've experienced them.

I'd rather shoot at a hundred yards than 400 yards. But the FACT is when animals are grazing in open meadows with no chance of closing distance, if conditions are perfect, I will kill it.

If your proficiency and equipment limit your shots to under 300 yards, you have firm command of your abilities.

BTW, I still don't know whether animals can see hunter orange. But I don't care whether they can. I know other hunters can see it. I'd rather miss a 30" mule deer than take an '06 round.
 
Bk you sound like you have experience already and are just looking for someone to help you decide. I was in the same boat not too long ago and I ended up getting both. The 300 is all pro's with really no cons imo. Flatter trajectory and 200 grain bullets will penetrate well in any of the animals you have mentioned. The 338 wm shines at 250 yards and under with the energy transfer capabilities. It's not a great deal over the 300 but on really big bears every Lil bit helps. I'm positive neither will let you down so good luck and good hunting.
 
To Ballisti and Llama Bob
I see both of you have recently joined.This ethical distance shooting debate has been discussed here many times before.
A few years back I would have agreed with you.But since that time I have practiced more,understand ballistics more and got help from my friends.With improved skill came more confidence and greater distances.Not just at paper,but game also.

Let us just say one of you are on the last day of your elk hunt,your rifle is a 30-06.Your onto a once in a lifetime bull elk,but he is out of your ethical distance,so you try and close the gap.It,s getting very late and you don,t have much time.You close the gap,but can,t go any farther for fear of being busted.He is 385 yards out,standing broadside,no wind. What do you do?

Here are the 4 scenarios that I think might possibly happen.

1.You talk yourself and the ethical gods into letting you take a shot,only to miss cleanly because it,s 85 yards farther,than you normally practice.No harm,no foul.Only you start to wonder,maybe I should change my ethical distance to 400yrds.

2.You take the shot and nail him,but you tell everybody back home you took him at 285yrds,so they won,t ridicule you for taking an unethical,unsportsmanlike shot.

3.Now you,ve done it.Not only are you mad at yourself,the ethical distance gods are mad at you too.You took a shot, wounding him and you lost him.Why? cause you don,t have the confidence to shot that far.

4.You let yourself and the ethical distance gods get the best of you and you let him walk into the fading sunset.On the long walk out you can,t get 2 things off your mind. If you well ever get another golden opportunity like that again and you keep wondering if some SOB 500 yard hunter will bag him.

Don,t let the hunting scenarios get you mad,just having some fun.:)

But seriously guys,you have a 300 yard maximum distance for taking elk,that,s great,that,s fine,would be my distance too.
But do you seriously think every elk hunter should follow your personal rules. The last I heard taking an elk at 500 yards is perfectly legal.

You can rant and rave,call people names, post your opinions on the subject until Hades freezes over,but it won,t change anything.

If you could go back into time to the late 1800,s and told someone you could shoot and kill elk at 300yards,you would probably get the same ridicule your giving the 500 yard hunters today.

Things just change over time and I guess some people just handle it better than others.;)
 
More nonsense. There is no skill that prevents the animal you are shooting at from moving. The only way to prevent that is to reduce bullet flight time. Seriously, do the experiment yourself. See how far you can walk from a dead stop in the time it takes to count out "one-one-thousand". Then go to JBM and figure out how long it will take your load to fly 500 yards. Then multiply the two together. Then realize game animals walk faster than you do.

Believe me, I have plenty of experience shooting at range. This is not my first rodeo. There's very little hard about shooting at a stationary point in space at 500 yards. But the paper and steel targets don't make a habit of randomly moving three feet while you're shooting. Game animals can and will do exactly that.

All the mechanics of long range shooting were developed for sniping and target shooting, both applications where shooting and missing has little ethical downside. Moving those techniques to hunting, where there are major ethical problems with missing, is very problematic.
 
"Full of Farina"

Lol...that gave me a chuckle.

I don't get too butt hurt about ethical sportsmanship, or talk thereof. What gets me mad is that someone on their high horse thinks they know what is good for all hunters of all animals in all states and terrain types. If you think the deer where I am at are going to let you jump up and down at 500yards (or 800, or 1000, often more) without hauling tail, you're wrong.

If you don't shoot at 500 yards in practice, by all means DON'T try it on a live animal. If the wind is blowing, same thing: DON'T TRY IT. For some people 300 yards is a MIGHTY long way. In my Dad's native Minnesota North Woods, 100 yards was a mighty long shot. Where I grew up 300 seems pretty close sometimes.

I took my last Mulie at 60 yards

I am actually one of the first people to say "The REAL hunter brags about how close he could get, not how far he had to shoot." I just don't think it precludes the very existence of an ethical 500 yard shot.

As the man says Your Mileage May Vary.
 
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One thing about wind, just because it's not blowing on you doesn't mean 500yds down range it isn't.
 
Someone mentioned a 208 grain 30 being flatter than the 7mm. Looks to me like at about 2950 that one is not. The 162 grain 7mm is going to be about 1.5 MOA flatter. Not being argumentative at all, hope someone don't think so. Also, if you want to start shooting at things a long way off, it is helpful to start training yourself to start thinking of windage and trajectory in minutes of angle or Mils, whichever type scope you have. Kentucky windage aint going to cut it here (500 yards-wing and a prayer shot) and still allow any type of precision.

You need a good scope, with a good reticle, $$$$, practice ranging objects at unknown ranges with it, (learn to accurately estimate the size of objects and do the math quickly). Then check the accuracy of your calculations with a range finder. Practice, practice, and practice some more making wind calls, shoot and then observe how accurate your wind calls are.

KNOW the velocity and BC or your load, cant just go by what the load manual says it should be. Guessing is missing.

When you buy suitable equipment, learn to use your equipment, learn to think of things in MOA, or MIL, SHOOT A WHOLE BUNCH of bullets in varying conditions and ranges, from various shooting positions, get good at it, (that's good enough that's its easy and you are supremely confident of every shot), then you're ready. Its not really that hard, but it don't just happen, and people just "have a knack for it" is BS.

But then you may not have enough money left to hunt.
 
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